{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/0c4sj1bk96/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Karl Kaiser, December 2, 2022"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2022-12-02 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Scott, Blake"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Kaiser, Karl"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Karl Kaiser describes his many experiences and the motivations guiding his decades-long career as a researcher and political leader involved in international relations. Kaiser was born in Germany in 1934 and was profoundly shaped by his childhood during the Second World War and its aftermath. As a young man, he became deeply involved in East-West relations and activism calling for the end of authoritarian rule in Eastern Europe. He received his PhD in Political Science from Cologne University (1958), and subsequently taught for over two decades at the University of Bonn. He has also held numerous visiting and research positions at Harvard, most recently as a Fellow at the Project on Europe and the Transatlantic Relationship at the Kennedy School. Dr. Kaiser published hundreds of articles and fifty books on subjects ranging from German, British, French, and American foreign policies, to transatlantic and East-West relations, European integration, and Asian-European relations. For his efforts connecting research with diplomacy, he has received numerous awards including the Atlantic Award of NATO. Throughout this interview, Dr. Kaiser describes these various efforts, including his work with the East-West Institute. He goes into great detail explaining the context and personal commitments that kept him focused on European integration, democracy-building, and reconciliation despite old prejudices dividing the people of Europe and the Atlantic world.\u003c/p\u003e (abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["College of Charleston Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["Deutsche Gesellschaft für Auswärtige Politik","EastWest Institute","Genscher, Hans-Dietrich","Horn, Gyula","Kissinger, Henry","Milošević, Slobodan","Mroz, John Edwin","North Atlantic Treaty Organization"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Civil service","Cold War","Diplomacy","Economics","Geopolitics","German reunification question (1949-1990)","History","Hungarian Revolution, Hungary, 1956","Kosovo War, 1998-1999","Nationalism","Non-governmental organizations","World War II"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Europe, Central","Germany","Germany (East)","Germany (West)","Hungary","Poland","Russia","Serbia","Soviet Union","Ukraine"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type IMT"]},"value":{"en":["audio/m4a"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright © College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2023-02-02"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Karl Kaiser describes his many experiences and the motivations guiding his decades-long career as a researcher and political leader involved in international relations. Kaiser was born in Germany in 1934 and was profoundly shaped by his childhood during the Second World War and its aftermath. As a young man, he became deeply involved in East-West relations and activism calling for the end of authoritarian rule in Eastern Europe. He received his PhD in Political Science from Cologne University (1958), and subsequently taught for over two decades at the University of Bonn. He has also held numerous visiting and research positions at Harvard, most recently as a Fellow at the Project on Europe and the Transatlantic Relationship at the Kennedy School. Dr. Kaiser published hundreds of articles and fifty books on subjects ranging from German, British, French, and American foreign policies, to transatlantic and East-West relations, European integration, and Asian-European relations. For his efforts connecting research with diplomacy, he has received numerous awards including the Atlantic Award of NATO. Throughout this interview, Dr. Kaiser describes these various efforts, including his work with the East-West Institute. He goes into great detail explaining the context and personal commitments that kept him focused on European integration, democracy-building, and reconciliation despite old prejudices dividing the people of Europe and the Atlantic world.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright \u0026copy; College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Kaiser_Karl_Dec2022.m4a"]},"duration":3749.312,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/174/175/original/Kaiser_Karl_Dec2022.m4a?1675288377","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mp3","duration":3749.312,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Interview with Karl Kaiser, December 2, 2022 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay, we're recording. My name is Blake Scott. Today is December 2nd, 2022. And the name of this project is The East-West Society's Oral History Project. Today I'm in Charleston, South Carolina at the College of Charleston. And for the record, could you state your name, date of birth, and place of birth?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nI'm Karl Kaiser. I was born on December 8th, 1934 in Siegen in Germany, and I'm now living in New Hampshire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=22.0,32.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThank you for joining us. Well, in the virtual world, we're joining each other. To get the interview started, the oral history started, could you tell us a bit about how you first became interested in international relations? Were there experiences growing up that stand out that shaped your commitments?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=32.0,50.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, I'm a product of World War II, a child of World War II. I was born in '34, so by the time the war started, I was a child that could understand what was going on. At the end of the war I was nine years old and I lived through bombings, through the front rolling over our house with the battle raging right there on top of our heads. And we were then liberated by American soldiers who behaved very well. And my first experience with Americans then, of course I was German, was the soldiers treating us very nicely and actually starting a discussion with... One of the ladies, the women that were with us, was an English teacher. So in a way, as a child of nine-years old, I experienced the first discussion on politics in the last days of the war because the capitulation of Germany occurred three days later. So the war, the destruction, the enormous turmoil, very much influenced my life. And the lessons of international politics that it could lead to war under unfortunate circumstances was always with me and it has shaped me quite profoundly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=50.0,156.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI can imagine. So what town or city were you in at the time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=156.0,161.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWe lived in a medium-sized town of about 50,000 in Southern Westphalia in Germany where the Americans conquered that area. But it was preceded by lots of bombings because our town had industry, so it was bombed and pretty much destroyed at that time, and I survived in the shelter, but it was an experience that most Germans went through at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=161.0,197.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOne follow-up question in this and then we can move on to later aspects of your career. How were you keeping up with events? Were you listening to the radio or people talking? How did you know what was going on as an eight or nine-year-old?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=197.0,213.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nYou mean at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=213.0,214.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYes, at that time as the allies are coming, the US, France, Great Britain coming from the west and the Soviet Union coming from the east.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=214.0,223.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, all we had were of course the official media of the Nazi regime, but even they could not hide anymore the reality. The reality of the allies coming nearer and nearer and that the final victory, which the propaganda of the Nazi regime promised at the time was out of reach completely and that the end was imminent. And our goal as it would've been for everybody was survival, to survive that and fortunately we did and my entire family survived. And so in that sense, we were quite lucky.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=223.0,265.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd as you come out of that, so then you're 10, 11 years old, how did you then begin to think about your education or your career as you're becoming a young man?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=265.0,277.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, I went to high school in my hometown and then studied economics and did a little bit of political science in Cologne, which is about 60 miles away from my hometown. And originally, the emphasis was on economics, but that started in 1954. But in 1956, some major events changed my life too because that was the year when the Hungarians revolted against the Soviet regime, against the communist regime. And then the Soviet Union intervened with troops in order to save the communist government at that time. It was a very bloody event. We watched it from outside. I was a student at Cologne University. In fact, I was elected speaker of one part of the faculty. And so, we organized support for the Hungarian with the revolt. We even collected money to send them a small transmitter, but not only that. And we watched with great engagement what was going on there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=277.0,358.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And we were extremely sad when, of course, at the end, the revolution was defeated by Soviet troops very brutally. And we demonstrated in front of the Soviet embassy, and that was the sort of thing I used to organize along with my friends. But we also demonstrated against Britain and France at that time, because there was the Suez Crisis at the same moment when Britain and France intervened after the nationalization of the Suez Canal by Nasser. So we also demonstrated against that. But then we organized help for the refugees from Hungary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=358.0,402.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And when all of that was over, I decided that economics, while academically interesting, and it always remained an interest of mine, was not the field in which I wanted to spend the rest of my life. It was politics and the analysis of politics, in particular of conflict. And that was the beginning of my change. And when I graduated in 1958, I got a fellowship from the French government to study in France for a year. And I did that in Carnaval, very nice university in the mountains in the south. And after that, I went to Oxford University to Naval College to write a thesis on a topic that is very near to me, always, on European integration, on the unification of Europe. Because one of the conclusions that I personally drew from the events around me, as so many Germans, was that the only sensible future for the European countries and in particular for Germany that had been responsible for World War II and the Holocaust was the reconciliation with our European fellow countries, the other countries, European integration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=402.0,484.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so, my thesis was about that topic, in this case about Britain and European unification. This is the thesis which I wrote at Oxford University. I submitted it in Cologne at my old university. And from there on, my life stayed in this because in 1960, Henry Kissinger, then professor at Harvard University, invited me to become his assistant because he needed somebody knowledgeable on European and German affairs for a project that he was undertaking at Harvard University. That was, of course, before he became National Security Advisor to Richard Nixon, and later on, of course, foreign secretary of the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=484.0,529.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThank you for that. So I can see a trajectory from student to activist to researcher, and then if you could tell me how do you go from researcher to someone shaping policy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=529.0,546.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nThe advantage of working in the entourage of Henry Kissinger and at Harvard University at that time was to see the close interaction of politics and academic life, which is a peculiar aspect of, I would say, many American universities, something that European universities don't have. There is a strict separation of academic life, research, and politics - not in America. And that was very much demonstrated to me. So in a way, I learned it, I socialized this kind of combination. And in fact, when you look back at the origin of political science, way back to the Greeks who were the first to think about politics, you can see that the thinking about politics must be concentrated and focused on the real world, on how to affect it, how to change it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=546.0,607.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in that sense, I came back with that tradition to Europe. And from the very beginning, I was very much committed. I was a supporter of Willy Brandt, Ostpolitik. He became the chancellor of Germany seeking for a new relationship with Eastern Europe, notably with Soviet Union and with Poland. And from then on, my life was sort of divided between being an academic, at first, always a university professor, but also a head of the German Council on Foreign Relations in Bonn later on in Berlin, which focuses on the real world and academic teaching and writing, of course, on these matters.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=607.0,660.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIn this realm of politics, what were some of the actions or projects that you were focusing on in that early stage?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=660.0,671.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nMany of them were actually related to ongoing political themes, important themes of that time. I joined the German-British Association, the so-called Königswinter Conference. Königswinter is a place where they always met on the German side, it's a town on the Rhine, which started in 1949, so I came in, of course much later, which had the purpose to create reconciliation among opinion leaders in Britain and in Germany, former enemies in World War II. So that was one area where I was very active.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=671.0,713.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in fact, later on in the 1980s when Helmut Schmidt became chancellor of Germany, his relationship with his Polish counterpart, then a communist country on the other side of the Iron Curtain, a member of the Warsaw Pact, Germany being a member of NATO, the Western alliance. Helmut Schmidt, whom I know a little bit personally, he asked me to do the same thing for the relationship with Poland, what had been created between Britain and Germany, namely a regular meeting of opinion leaders, business, intellectual life, academics, journalists, to create some understanding and to open up, at the level of societies, a dialogue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=713.0,768.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Which in the case of Germany and Poland was particularly difficult, much more difficult than with Britain because Germany was a democracy, Poland was a communist country, it was a member of another alliance. And most important in this context, Poland, as a result of the agreements of World War II, had been moved to the west. It lost eastern territories to Ukraine. And in exchange, it got Western territory, that we're German, and it stopped at the Oder-Neisse. That was the result of the Potsdam Conference of the Allies at the end of World War II. And the recognition of that loss was a deeply divisive issue in terms of society. And let's say the liberals and the left, social democrats and the liberal party, I was a social democrat, we thought that this is final, this is the result of World War II, we must not question that and that we should recognize the border. And this Polish-German body, we called it a forum, among other things, had the purpose of helping to make West Germans who were not yet willing to accept the loss as a result of World War II, to accept it and to live with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=768.0,857.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so in that sense, it was quite important and I spent a good deal of energy for 20 years to do that. And of course, as you know, the Oder-Neisse line is the definitive final border between the United Germany and Poland now, but it took many, many years and a hard effort. So that is another project in which I was involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=857.0,880.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI'm trying to imagine what these efforts look like. Would you call this track two diplomacy? What type of interactions are happening? Are people sitting around in a circle and talking? What are these formats that you're designing…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=880.0,896.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nThe formats that we had was... First of all, we had larger meetings in which we debated these questions, in which we involved skeptics and proponents exchanging arguments, always public, meaning what was said was available and there were always journalists. So our debates radiated into their society and into our society, and in particular into the then skeptical party, which was the Christian Democratic Union, which later on accepted it. But that was after unification, it was accepted. And in fact, there was a very critical moment when in 1989 the Berlin Wall fell and the negotiations began on the unification of Germany and of course also of Europe, in that sense. The opponents to the recognition of the Oder-Neisse line sort of briefly tried to raise that issue. But thanks to all the debates that had taken place before, it was quickly squashed. Of course, there would be no interest of the international community to unify Germany if there was a territorial question still. The Germans had to accept it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=896.0,986.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in that sense, our work at that moment that we had done for a number of years paid out. It was quickly settled, but I must add the American president, then George W. Bush, greatly helped because he made it very clear to Chancellor Cole, \"Stop the talk. Let's get over with it.\" And the final agreements of course reconfirmed the Oder-Neisse line as the final frontier between Poland and a then reunited Germany.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=986.0,1019.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAt the time of unification and the Berlin Wall coming down, where were you living, and what were…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1019.0,1027.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nAt that time, I was professor at that time in Cologne, a year later, I was in Bonn, but more important, I was director of the German Council and Foreign Relations in Bonn, which is a sort of the leading foreign policy institution of the country, like the Council of Foreign Relations in the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1027.0,1051.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nTo ask more of a personal type question, what were your feelings or emotions at the time of unification? How were you processing that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1051.0,1065.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWhen the Wall fell and the jubilant crowds were sitting on top of the Wall, of course I was deeply moved. There was a formal event a little while later and I walked through the Brandenburg Gate for the first time. That was a very moving moment and frankly, I had never expected it would happen because I assumed that the Soviet Union would never relinquish East Germany. And I underestimated the possibilities that history produces and the [phone rings]... Sorry… the unusual combination that we had at that time of a Gorbachev in Russia, of a very experienced American president in the person of George Herbert Walker Bush, and a very skillful German chancellor, Helmut Kohl and reluctant, but in the end, willing allies, namely France, under Francois Mitterrand, and very reluctantly, Margaret Thatcher, the prime minister of Britain. In the end it worked out. It was an unusual... And it would not have happened. It would not have happened had there not been the preceding decades of reconciliation work, track II diplomacy and the trust that everybody had that a united Germany would not be a danger again. All the movements of reconciliation helped to do that. And the belief even on the Russian side, that they could trust a united Germany to accept the reunification.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1065.0,1182.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI think that's an excellent transition to think about the East-West Institute. Maybe you could help us understand, when you first got involved with EWI? And are they involved in [these] track II diplomatic efforts that you're thinking about in the eighties and early nineties?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1182.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nYes. In the 1980s when we were all engaged in this track II diplomacy, there was one particular effort which was led by John Mroz who created the Institute for East-West Security Studies as it was then called. And I had met him and an acquaintance of mine who was then undersecretary of state in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Christian Democrat, who was on the board, encouraged me and said, \"Look, this is a very unusual effort.\" And I looked at it and it was indeed unusual because the EastWest Institute brought together Americans, Canadians, West Europeans and East Europeans without the presence of the hegemonial power Soviet Union.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1200.0,1262.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Normally when we had these... We had lots of meetings with East European colleagues, I mean academics, journalists, politicians, but there was always a Soviet participation because they were very suspicious. They wanted to control the process. There would always be a member of the KGB, the Soviet Secret Service, to watch out that everybody stayed online on the Soviet... The EastWest Institute tried to do it without the Russian presence. That was something new. Now, we assumed that probably somehow the KGB would find out what was going on, but nevertheless, it had an atmosphere of cooperation and of discourse, which was different from the meetings which we usually had where there was always a Soviet guy to watch. And John Mroz had an unusual idea here and it worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1262.0,1329.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, we have to add that John Mroz was an unusual person because he had phenomenal capacity to engage people and to listen to him and to get convinced by John. And that's how he got all the funds. He got really influential people to help him and he succeeded in an amazing way to get the doors of governments open in the West. And thereby he could set up this institute in New York with its international meetings, with its meetings in New York, but also with the meetings outside. And I joined it, I became a member of a board, and then, the chairman of the academic advisory committee because the board was sitting, so to speak, on top, defining the basic lines of the policy, but also meeting regularly. And the board was always an interesting collection of influential people, politically influential people and academics. And the academic advisory board was a board of academics who would guide the academic work of the various people. Because in New York we had researchers from Eastern Europe and from the West, West Europeans, Americans who would work jointly on projects. And the academic advisor board of which I was the chair would, so to speak, oversee that and give them ideas and help finance projects, etcetera.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1329.0,1431.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nDo you remember your first meeting with John Mroz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1431.0,1435.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nUnfortunately, I try to remember that. I mean, I've seen him so often that I can no longer remember when I saw him the first time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1435.0,1446.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWhat were you..","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1446.0,1449.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nBut he convinced me easily. I mean, it was not a problem to join.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1449.0,1455.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nUnderstand. So when you were visiting with John, you would sit around and brainstorm the issues, and can you tell me a little bit about those interactions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1455.0,1467.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, John was a man who was busting with ideas constantly. He always had ideas. He always had a pad with him. And when somebody came up with an idea, he would even write it down. He was an extremely lively person, engaging, and it was always fun to communicate with him. And he was an unusual person in that sense. And sometimes he was... One felt this is too much. He wants to do too many things at the same time as fast as possible. He was in that sense impatient, but not in an unpleasant way, but intellectually impatient and impatient on the right things. I could identify easily with what he wanted to be done as fast as possible because he wanted to get East/West relations improved as we Europeans wanted it to. And in that sense he found lots of partners.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1467.0,1544.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One partner for example, was the German foreign minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, who was enamored by him, and because they were brethren in spirit they wanted to change things and John did it with that institution. And so we had meetings... I'll give you two examples, which were absolutely unusual. One, in 1988... In '88, that's a year before the Wall fell, we had the first meeting in East Germany, the German Democratic Republic, then still communist in East Berlin, had never been done before. The East Germany regime, as we later realized, was already very shaky at that moment. But for the first time, the West German foreign minister, Genscher, came to East Germany where he actually was born. And for the first time ever, a Deputy American, the deputy foreign secretary of state came, John White. Never been done before. John made, managed that. That was part of the advantage of being a track II institution, having the right connections. It would've been difficult for the governments to do that, you see, but a track two institution, the EastWest Institute, could invite the ministers and they came. And so we had a very interesting and forward-looking meeting in East Berlin and the East German Politburo with Ernst Honecker, the head at the top, received all of us in a major gesture at that time. So that was very unusual. Needless to say, the meeting also saw the shortcomings of the regime.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1544.0,1673.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I remember my wife, who had accompanied me, when she went out she was always followed by a secret service person. So were we all, but then what? We had a great meeting between East and West, including important politicians. The other meeting was roughly in... It must have been I think either late '88 or early '89. It was the first meeting of major military, [at the] level of generals, and the deputy head of the joint chiefs of staff of the Russian, of Soviet Union in Budapest. And I was in charge of that meeting. I prepared it at the request of the institute. And I still remember, very well, that when... On one of these occasions to prepare it, I saw the then undersecretary, the deputy foreign minister, Gyula Horn, famous man later on, famous man. He was sent then, in communist state, then totally communist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1673.0,1747.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said to him, \"Mr. Horn, I hope you realize that when we meet, some people will say that the Russian troops should go home and leave Hungary.\" And he was sort of quietly puffing a cigarette and said, \"I hope so. I hope so.\" And that's exactly what happened. And at the meeting it was absolutely extraordinary. You had the number two Soviet military man, and we had only one American general, but in the end it took... The Americans were very wary at that time. But the military discussed and it was all done because we had an institution which was created, the EastWest Institute, which provided a framework which governments could not yet produce. And so they met for the first time and had the first discussions with all kinds of follow-ups later on because they had met.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1747.0,1811.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI have a follow-up question to that about defining track II diplomacy. These are political officials, military officials, but from your perspective and the institute's perspective, this is track II diplomacy, and what exactly does that mean to you all to do track II diplomacy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1811.0,1833.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell track II diplomacy takes place in an environment which doesn't have some of the inhibitions that official meetings have. And thereby you can bring together people which couldn't otherwise talk to each other without enormous preparation. I mean, at that time, an American general and a Soviet general to meet, that would've required government preparations and prior agreements. This was much easier. And yet whatever, in track II diplomacy, happens, feeds back into the policy process.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1833.0,1874.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that's why track II is absolutely indispensable in the modern world because it facilitates policy at the higher level. It also changes attitudes. It makes people meet who have never met before. It reduces prejudice. You meet human being for the first... You meet other human beings… they realize they're human beings. They may think like I do, he's not just only an adversary, but he is a human being, who has personal desires or has a family and who has aspirations that we share and that's hidden when they meet officially in delegations. And that is why track II diplomacy is very important and was very important in the East-West relationship. And the East-West conflict ended not only because the top changed, but because the society under it changed too. And because the track II process helped that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1874.0,1955.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAgain, I want to imagine what these meetings look like. Someone who's not familiar with track II diplomacy could imagine that it's just people getting around and talking. But how do you then create structure to guide these interactions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1955.0,1976.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, the structures are conferences. You propose conferences, then the conference very often is preceded by preparing papers. That starts the cooperation. Then you have the intensive discussion. You may break up into groups. The conference may produce follow-up meetings to look at particular elements. People meet each other and agree to do more with each other because they met for the first time. And so the process produces sort of children that go on. And in that sense, the EastWest Institute was quite effective.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=1976.0,2030.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And sometimes we had... I still remember when we met in Hungary, not the one meeting that I mentioned, but it was another meeting. I knew that the Hungarian official, who we knew was very close to the Soviet KGB, we knew that, tried to prevent something, he tried to prevent a meeting and he failed. He failed because the dynamics of this process just produced it in the end. There were too many people then involved and got ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2030.0,2074.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Sometimes the meetings produced something very, very concrete. And I want to mention one in April '99, the board of the East-West Security Institute met in Berlin. And at that time, the war over Kosovo was in full swing. The bombing was taking place, the NATO bombing had been taking place and there was talk about possible escalation to a ground war. At that time, the situation looked really very tense. We met in Berlin, the board, and the proceedings are still available of that board meeting, April. In fact, I passed them on to the college because I found them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2074.0,2141.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And at that meeting, Peter Castenfelt, who was a longtime board member, he's a Swede living in Britain. He owns a company in London and he had strong connections with Russia. He had helped the Russians. Yeltsin, in particular, the president, and Victor Chernomyrdin to get some financing from the International Monetary Fund. And he was very trusted. And I, at that time, I had helped the then German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder. In his campaign I wrote with somebody else, all his foreign policy speeches and helped him in the campaign. So the two of us, we said, \"Let's see whether we can't do something.\" To do what we discussed in the board meeting that we should try and get something going, more understanding to overcome the ongoing conflict.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2141.0,2209.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And what we then did is that he used his connection to the Russian government. I used my connection to the German government. We were used, so to speak, with our help, that the Russians communicated through Castenfelt and me, and after consultations with the German government, that in case there would be a war that the Russians would not support Milosevic at that time, the leader of Slavia. And we wrote down elements of an agreement because at that time there had been a proposal in Rambouillet that they had been produced to end the war, but Milosevic didn't want to accept it. And then Peter Castenfelt took that, after we had consulted, what we had written down with the help of the Russian secret service, while the bombing was going on into Belgrade, and negotiated with and brought it all to Milosevic, was available for his questions, discussed elements of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2209.0,2290.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it then turned out that Milosevic was actually not as well informed as he should have been. But I think the message that we brought helped, that the next day when [Martti] Ahtisaari, the former Finnish president with Strobe Talbott's deputy secretary of state and Victor Chernomyrdin from Russia, when they came that Milosevic agreed to the conditions and he stopped... That stopped the war. So you could argue that this was track II, which turned into real policy and then the international press got hold of it. And so there was an article in New York Times and the Financial Times at that time, which described what we had done and also mentioned the institute. It came out, the governments, the German government, and the American government said, \"No, no, no, no. That didn't play a role.\" But we know it played a role.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2290.0,2355.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThank you for that. I did want to change course, but I wanted to check with you, how are you on time? Did you want to take a break?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2355.0,2363.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nI'm Fine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2363.0,2364.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay. Yeah, thank you. This is fascinating. I'm happy to keep going. I wanted to change course just briefly. I know another aspect of your research is transatlantic relations. Could you tell us a little bit about how you first began to articulate that as a field of study, but also, you're living in the United States now, so I'm curious how those two interact for you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2364.0,2393.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nI became exposed to transatlantic relations when I worked for Henry Kissinger as an assistant, beginning in 1963 and stayed with that topic for the rest of my professional career as a major element when I... both as director of the German Council on Foreign Relations, as a professor teaching this field, but also as an activist who was involved here and there as an advisor in politics. And I spent a great deal of time on NATO affairs because I was convinced that only a strong alliance between Europe and America would, in the end, help to bring the Cold War to an end, which it did, as we all know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2393.0,2450.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so my entire professional life was shaped by that. I wrote a great deal on all the economic and political questions, including a lot about nuclear strategy, that was sort of a specialty, and nuclear proliferation question, but also on military nuclear strategy as essential part of the Western Alliance. And wherever I was, I spent a great deal of time on it. That's why NATO gave me their annual award because I became a trans-Atlantic person. Also, in the sense that I went back and forth a great deal. I went back to Harvard University a lot as visiting professor. Now, that helped by the fact that I have an American wife and that we are grounded in New England. And when in 2003 I ended my time as director of the German Council on Foreign relations in Berlin, I had moved it from Bonn to Berlin, along with parliament, government and other institutions, then Harvard reactivated me. I had a professorship at the Kennedy School and I started, again, on this side dealing with transatlantic affairs, but in a reverse manner, meaning here I wanted to make sure that the relevance of Europe in American thinking remains strong. In Europe, it was the relevance of America and transatlantic relations, which I tried to foster and that is why we moved back here completely. And I became an American citizen in 2008. So I am now a citizen of both countries. In other words, truly transatlantic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2450.0,2569.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYou lived what you studied.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2569.0,2570.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nYes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2570.0,2573.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT \n\nI know that in over 50 books and hundreds of articles you articulate this in many ways, but just succinctly or snippets of it, what is your underlying philosophy for thinking about transatlantic relations? What's the goal that you're trying to get at?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2573.0,2594.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nThe goal... When you look at modern history, the rise of the West, meaning the regimes that believe in individual liberty and human rights, is the most important progressive trend. And it has been the Atlantic civilization, with America and Canada on one side and Western Europe on the other side that were basically the center of the West and remain the center of the West. And I've always been convinced that unless this part of the world stays together, the idea of freedom and liberty and of human rights is not going to prevail. And that is particularly true right now as Russia has resorted again to another very, very imperialist and expansionist policy. And China is turning into a very authoritarian regime. I think the future of the West depends primarily on the transatlantic relationship. If America and Europe stay together and stay democratic and cooperate, of course this idea is going to prevail. But unless they do that, the idea is going to be in danger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2594.0,2689.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd I'm curious to hear what you think about the present moment. It certainly feels in danger with what's going on with Russia and Ukraine and the way China is thinking about the region as well with Taiwan and their neighbors. Could you help us try to understand, why this particular moment, how does this connect to the post-Cold War world that you've been part of?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2689.0,2719.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, the post-Cold War era is ended. It's over because there was a hope that when the Cold War ended, the East-West confrontation after the fall of the Berlin Wall and with the agreements made Germany unified, with the central European countries becoming democracies. At that time, there was the hope that the European system could remain peaceful based basically on the principles of what was then worked out in the so-called Charter of Paris, mutual respect, basically the UN charter principles of respecting each other... That's dead now. The Russian aggression has completely killed this hope.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2719.0,2782.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We are resorting to a... We are going into a system where the outcome isn't yet clear. But you can see some trends that the West will hopefully stay together. There will be a period of rearmament or the world will be much more conflictual. The possibility exists that you will have a combination of Russia and China as two autocratic powers facing the rest of the liberal world with a large part of the world remaining non-involved. Large parts of Africa, possibly large parts of America-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2782.0,2834.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nYeah, they will not get involved. We don't know. But this idea that many of us had in the 1990s, in the early 1990s, that at the global level continued globalization and growing together of the economies combined with a slow emergence of an all European system where Russia would in some way or another, be part of a security arrangement that would encompass Europe and Russia. That's dead. That is dead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2834.0,2882.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI'm curious, why do you think it died? Why did it not work?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2882.0,2889.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nIt died because Russia resorted to what most Europeans thought would never happen again, to simple military expansionism in the style of Adolph Hitler, conquering another country. We thought that wouldn't happen again. Although there was still NATO. I mean, that was always... There was a reassurance policy because after all, NATO was created dealing with Soviet Union of which one was afraid that it could expand and could attack. But that died away, that fear, although not completely. And here Russia comes along in the most brutal manner and attacks another country which it tries to incorporate, claiming that it is theirs, thereby undermining the basic principle of international politics, that you respect the territorial integrity of other countries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2889.0,2953.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIf you…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2953.0,2955.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nIt may one day. Of course, Russia will not disappear. It may become different when there's another Russia. We will continue to be forced to cooperate at one point with a Russia of the future because there will be no effective climate policy without incorporating this huge... the largest country of the world. Nor can you imagine an effective policy dealing with pandemic, excluding that part of the world. But it is hard to imagine that you can do it with the present Russia, the pressure of the Russia of Vladimir Putin, which is turning into a Stalinist repressive regime.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=2955.0,3004.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIf you could go back into the past, I know this is hypothetical, it's not possible, but if we could go back into the past, what could the leaders of the West done differently to stop this from happening…What would you have advised?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3004.0,3022.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, of course in retrospect, all these calculations and speculations are extremely problematic, what would've happened if.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3022.0,3035.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nBut it did guide, out of World War II, it certainly guided the way the United Nations was created. So I'm wondering what we would then build next, based on avoiding this happening in the future, if that makes sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3035.0,3048.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWhat we underestimate, we thought that the projection that was initiated in 1989, 1990, 1991, when the wall fell, when Germany, Europe got sort of reunited, when the Soviet Union collapsed, that the line that was started then would continue, that the Soviet Union, what then became Russia, somehow we would have a common regime at some point. What we did not see properly was that internally Russia continued to evolve and it evolved negatively. Putin came to power, the West totally underestimated what was going on, that how he did exactly, strategically, he occupied more and more positions and he gradually took over the regime. During the Yeltsin period when he was still collaborating with Saint Petersburg as an assistant to the mayor, we thought there's a hope for democracy in Russia. But we underestimated that. Whether it would've been different, although there would always have been the Putin, if the West had done different things. It's totally... It's sheer speculation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3048.0,3142.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Some people argue that we could have been more forthcoming. Well, the West did, after all, cooperate with the Russia of the time. It created the NATO Russia Council. Some argue we should not have enlarged NATO. On the other hand, even Putin knows that NATO is not an aggressive institution. Some argue we should not have helped the Ukrainians when they started to—to… with the Maidan [Uprising] and all of it because that increased his sense of persecution that the West was advancing on him. He knew very well. And in fact the Germans have said it again and again that the Ukraine will not become a member of NATO. He knew that there was no chance. So this argument we had to prevent Ukraine from becoming NATO is totally false. I think in this whole speculation, we underestimate the role that the transformation of Russia with Putin and due to his efforts and to the people that he has around him, that has really changed and closed the options of affecting the course of Russia. That's the sad part.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3142.0,3229.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay, thanks for that explanation. Are there topics or issues that you'd still like to cover that I haven't asked about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3229.0,3242.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, I think… on the institute we have said... We've covered… Basically covered the areas that need to be [discussed].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3242.0,3255.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYeah, no, I think it's been a great conversation. I did have just two more questions for you then, unless you want to go in different directions. I am curious about your personal or your family life, how family or friends, how are they looking at your career and how are you blending the two? What's that like for you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3255.0,3278.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, I had a more or less normal family life. I'm still married with the same woman. I had three children, two of them are in Germany, one of them is here, lives here. So again, it's sort of a pretty transatlantic existence. Well, my friends...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3278.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nDid they understand what you were doing? Did you all talk about it over the dinner table? Did it feel like coming and going in two worlds? How did you think about it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3300.0,3309.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, it was a very... Look, it was a very policy and politics oriented life that I have conducted in all those years, both in Bonn and in Berlin and then also here. Very much your life turns around the issues of international politics. That's what you discuss. That's what you're... Is very much related to your friendships. That is normal. And European politics is of course complex and always interesting. There are so many countries, so many differences but such wealth of cultures. And I had the good fortune of living and being educated in three countries, Germany, France, and Britain. And I'm pretty familiar with all of them. And I continue to have friends there, in particular in France where I still go regularly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3309.0,3367.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I still consider today that the Franco-German relationship is the central relationship for the future of Europe. If you think in terms of how Europe is going to evolve, let's say as a unit of some sort, it'll never be a one state. But the united states of Europe, that's a very distant goal, but a grouping that in world politics plays a role. That's still there. It's partially already achieved, but much can be done in this field still.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3367.0,3405.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3405.0,3406.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nSo yeah, these are the subjects that in all my personal life, they were always there. And then there was... Of course, there are some other things such as the whole reaction and my personal involvement in dealing with the Nazi past of Germany. I was an active member of the American Jewish Committee when it was formed in Berlin. And I've always been very much engaged on such issues. Also, in our discussions that we had with Israel or with American Jews or back at home... I consider that... That is still a very important issue to me. We didn't discuss it, but that's also something that I feel strongly about. I still do by the way. And that is why what goes on in this country here, that really pains me when I see the white supremacy or the antisemitism that is around and even implicitly supported by a former President Trump. That's something that really pains me and with Europe's history in my back. It's regrettable, but it's there. It's an issue. And it has not disappeared, unfortunately.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3406.0,3493.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIn your research and in your personal life, I see this deep commitment to the notion of reconciliation in terms of whoever you're working with, that there's this commitment. Not to get too philosophical, but I am curious what you see as the value of being committed to reconciliation as a human, as this transatlantic community or global community. What is the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3493.0,3532.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, reconciliation overcomes what has been always one of the drivers of conflict, prejudice, preconceived notions about the other. And when you look back at the recent or at human history in general, there's nothing that has played such a destructive role as precisely prejudice and these preconceived notions about the other. And therefore, I consider that a process that addresses these issues as you do in processes of meeting across national boundaries or across boundaries of cultures or religions, is one of the most progressive and most constructive activities that a human being can undertake. Because it helps to remove what, unfortunately, is the reason for all so many of our very bloody and awful events that take place around us all the time, even as we speak. Why do we have this war in Ukraine? Because of preconceived notions that some people have, which are wrong about other people. So in that sense, it seems to me also on education, it's a very important goal to help people, to help young people to learn the process of reconciliation across boundaries, be their national, be their religious, be their cultural, be their linguistic. I mean, all of these things are extremely important.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3532.0,3640.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYes. And my last question to you then is for young people, young students who are just starting their careers, if they want to commit their lives to doing what you've done through this long 20th century, what advice would you offer them in terms of pursuing this commitment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3640.0,3667.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nWell, this commitment you can pursue in many, many ways. It can be a public career, serving in a public institution like State Department or another ministry, or as an elected official, as a parliamentarian, or as an elected person even at the town level. It's everywhere. The question of reconciling differences that could be the reason for conflict is everywhere, at the highest level between nations, and at the levels of towns, or small groups in which one works. So in that sense, it is something that you can address everywhere in life, but one has to be aware of it. And that is what a good college education should really do to create the awareness of the difference and the dangers of letting them grow out of hand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3667.0,3742.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI think that's a great way to stop.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3742.0,3744.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175/transcript/41622/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KARL KAISER\n\nAll right, Blake. All the best.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85944/file/174175#t=3744.0,3749.312"}]}]}]}