{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/2z12n50j31/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Jonathan Fanton, January 30, 2023"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2023-01-30 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Scott, Blake"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Fanton, Jonathan"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Jonathan Fanton recounts his experiences engaging the fight for human rights, at home and abroad. Fanton also has had a long and respected career in academia, serving as Special Assistant to the President of Yale University, Vice President of Planning at the University of Chicago, and President of the New School for Social Research for 17 years in New York. As an historian and author, Fanton has published on the relationship between civil society and universities. Universities, he argues, are key incubators of creative thought and democracy. In addition to his university career, Fanton has served as board chair for organizations such as Human Rights Watch, and President of the John D. and Catherine MacArthur Foundation. In this interview, in particular, Fanton explains how he first became involved in the organization Human Rights Watch during the 1980s, as democracy movements began to grow in Eastern Europe, and later, how he joined the East-West Institute’s board. \u003c/p\u003e (abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["College of Charleston Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["Brewster, Kingman, Jr.","Ceaușescu, Nicolae","College of Charleston","EastWest Institute","Helsińska Fundacja Praw Człowieka","Havel, Václav","Human Rights Watch","John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation","Laber, Jeri","New School (New York, N.Y.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Cold War","College administrators","Diplomacy","Education, Higher","Fund raising","History","Non-governmental organizations","Organizational change","Post-communism","Velvet Revolution, Czechoslovakia, 1989","World War II"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Europe, Central","Germany","Yugoslavia"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type IMT"]},"value":{"en":["video/mp4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright © College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2023-04-25"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Jonathan Fanton recounts his experiences engaging the fight for human rights, at home and abroad. Fanton also has had a long and respected career in academia, serving as Special Assistant to the President of Yale University, Vice President of Planning at the University of Chicago, and President of the New School for Social Research for 17 years in New York. As an historian and author, Fanton has published on the relationship between civil society and universities. Universities, he argues, are key incubators of creative thought and democracy. In addition to his university career, Fanton has served as board chair for organizations such as Human Rights Watch, and President of the John D. and Catherine MacArthur Foundation. In this interview, in particular, Fanton explains how he first became involved in the organization Human Rights Watch during the 1980s, as democracy movements began to grow in Eastern Europe, and later, how he joined the East-West Institute\u0026rsquo;s board.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright \u0026copy; College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/176/small/JonathanFantonOralHistory.mp4_1683645387.jpg?1683645392","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Jonathan_Fanton_Oral_History.mp4"]},"duration":2993.408,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/176/small/JonathanFantonOralHistory.mp4_1683645387.jpg?1683645392","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/187/176/original/Jonathan_Fanton_Oral_History.mp4?1683645319","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":2993.408,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Interview with Jonathan Fanton, January 30, 2023 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nGood afternoon. My name is Blake Scott. Today is January 30th, 2023, and the name of this project is the EWI Society Oral History Project. Thank you for joining us. For the record, could you state your name, date of birth, and place of birth?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=4.0,19.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nJonathan Fanton, born in Mobile, Alabama, April 29, 1943.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=19.0,27.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThank you for that, and thanks for joining us. To get us started, could you tell us how you first got interested in history and/or international relations? Were there experiences growing up or in school that stand out, shaping your commitments?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=27.0,43.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI always had an interest in history as my father and grandfather did. I'm from a small town in Connecticut where my family came, ancestors came in the 1680s, I think. I lived in that town, grew up in that town, and until just recently, had a house in that town. So a long family history on the board of the cemetery, which includes all the relatives back to the first Jonathan Fanton who is buried there. So I've always had an interest in history, and I suppose when I was at the Choate school, high school, is when I really took an interest in history. And then I majored in history at Yale and ultimately got a PhD in history at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=43.0,96.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nUnderstanding the timeline here and your movement, how do you go from Mobile to Connecticut? What's that relationship?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=96.0,103.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nMy father was in the army and was based in Mobile. And when he went overseas, my mother and I came back to Connecticut, where he is from, and lived with his parents while he was overseas. And when he came home in '46 or '47, we then bought a house in Connecticut.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=103.0,126.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo he served during World War II?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=126.0,127.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYes. But he was, because of eye problems, not an active serviceman. He was a lawyer and was on the prosecuting team at Dachau. Dachau was the military equivalent of Nuremberg, where the political prisoners were tried.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=127.0,146.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd you're a kid at the time, but I'm wondering when do you begin to form thoughts about what's going on in the world? Do you remember World War II, or is it more the Cold War? What were some of the events of your early life that stand out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=146.0,163.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, my first kind of memory was during the McCarthy period. My father was called to testify before the Army-McCarthy hearings because of his work at Dachau. We were living then in Trumbull, Connecticut. He was practicing law as a young man in Bridgeport.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=163.0,188.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was in maybe fourth grade or something, and I remember we began to get death threats. And my parents were very careful about where I walked, and couldn't do much alone. And my mother would watch from the bedroom window when I went to the bus stop.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=188.0,208.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One day, I missed the bus and the guy behind the bus gave me a ride. And before we went very far, the police were all over us because my parents were afraid I was kidnapped. And then I was given a stern lecture about the dangers of people with anti-Semitic views and told about my father's history, which I hadn't really fully understood. So I guess I began to kind of follow the world at a pretty young age.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=208.0,243.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo these are anti-communists or anti-Semitic. I don't know what you'd call them, almost terrorists or vigilante groups that are getting your family?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=243.0,253.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, we don't really know. All we know is that somebody had our address and sent us a series of threatening letters. But the letters were not in handwriting, they were newsprint cut out and put in the form of a letter. But very specific about me, about our dog. So it was clearly somebody who either lived around us or was watching us. That went on for a number of years. So I grew up, maybe till I was in seventh or eighth grade, very worried about safety.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=253.0,287.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo at that point, your dad was a practicing attorney with the military still, or was he-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=287.0,292.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nNo, no, he was... After '47, I'm going to say, he came back and resumed his civilian practice in Bridgeport.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=292.0,298.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nUnderstand. Okay. This is a big question, but those early experiences, for you, how do you think they played into your future studies or research?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=298.0,313.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I think it made me aware of the world at an early date and always sensitive to adversarial forces. And no, I think it was a growing up experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=313.0,329.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWhen you go to college, you're a major in history, and then you go to grad school for history. What were the main fields of study for you at that point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=329.0,340.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\n20th century American history is my field. I wrote my dissertation on a man named Robert Lovett, who was assistant secretary of war for air during the Second World War, and later under Secretary of State, and then later, Truman's last Secretary of Defense. So I wrote his, not a full biography, but a partial biography.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=340.0,365.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I should say that I debated, when I graduated from Yale, about going into law or history. And while I was debating, I worked in the civil rights movement and was very active at Yale in recruiting students of color for Yale and all the Ivy League and Seven Sister schools, and even ran a transitional year program for a couple years, where we took students that we identified from around the country, but who didn't have high enough board scores to get into a Yale or Harvard, but we knew they were smart enough, and so we gave them a bootcamp year at Yale. I taught history. And then marveled at how well they did getting into good schools.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=365.0,409.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo what year are you graduating from-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=409.0,411.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nGraduated in '65, and worked in the late '60s. And then in 1970, partly because I was active in the civil rights movement, I caught the attention of the president of Yale when he was looking for a chief of staff, and he hired me. That was a surprise, but a pleasant one. And in those days, there were no vice presidents. You can imagine that. It was a pretty important job. And still debating between law school and PhD, but I liked university administration so much, it decided [for] me that I should get a PhD, that that would be my career path.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=411.0,448.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIn history?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=448.0,449.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nIn history, yes. Because I'd been an undergraduate major, I knew the teachers. I'd been taking courses while I was working, so I was in effect taking graduate courses and on my way to a PhD. So after three, three and a half years, I took an easier job so that I could do my dissertation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=449.0,471.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWhat did the atmosphere on campus feel like? So many of us who are involved in universities, we look back at the mid to late '60s, and for my generation, it's hard to imagine it, but we hold it up in a particular light. I was hoping maybe you could tell us a little about what was campus life like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=471.0,489.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I worked for Kingman Brewster, who was a great president of Yale, and had taken on the challenge of making Yale coeducational, which he did. That earned him some criticism from alumni, conservative alumni, but also won him support from undergraduates. So he was able to navigate the issues of race and Vietnam and all the others pretty well. So I learned from him, really, how important it is to be open, transparent, support free speech, not call the police when there's a demonstration, meet with students who were protesting. And all those good traits that served me well when I was president of The New School, I learned from him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=489.0,554.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd I know you've written a book about the relationship between universities and civil society, but could you tell us a little bit about your philosophy in terms of what you think the proper role of a university is with society more broadly?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=554.0,567.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, the books were not... They were really compilations of my speeches to the freshman class, to the graduating students, but also my trip reports when I was at The New School and was involved in the Human Rights Watch and was traveling all through Eastern and Central Europe in the 1980s, which was a very transitional time. But I chose that title because I think universities are an important part of civil society, and I think it's important to train young people to be good citizens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=567.0,607.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYeah, thank you. And to understand this transition from being in university administration to some of your other work with Human Rights Watch and the MacArthur Foundation, how does that transition happen? Can you walk us through that career development…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=607.0,625.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nSure. Well, the chronology was Yale chief of staff for the president, then associate provost, easier job while I got my degree. The provost went to the University of Chicago. Hanna Gray as president. I came as vice president for planning. Then I got tapped to be president of The New School for Social Research, then back to Chicago to be head of the MacArthur Foundation. And then after a stint in New York starting a public policy institute in Franklin Roosevelt's old house on 65th Street, I finished up my career as president of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences based in Cambridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=625.0,665.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The New School has a storied history. It began 1919 as a rebellion against Columbia, the old school, and it offered initially courses to adults on social and political issues, then expanded into the arts. Its president, Alvin Johnson, was the editor of a social science journal and got to know a lot of... Or actually, the Encyclopedia of Social Science, and commissioned a lot of articles from intellectuals all over the world, including Germany and France and Italy. And when Hitler banned the Jews in 1933, Johnson organized a University in Exile, a rescue mission, for initially people he knew, many of whom were Jewish, and started a University in Exile at The New School that became its graduate faculty of political and social science.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=665.0,728.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, fast forward to the 1980s, I come as president, and there are members of the faculty who say, \"We really ought to rekindle The New School's historic mission of caring about scholars in trouble. Let's begin a series of underground seminars in Eastern Europe.\" So we started seminars in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, other places. I was very supportive of that, and that was my kind of opening to the world and to traveling, which I had not done much of. We smuggled contraband literature in, smuggled their articles out to get published in the West.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=728.0,772.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The same scholars were also active in the human rights movements in those countries, and that connected me to Helsinki Watch, which is the parent organization of what became Human Rights Watch. So then I joined Helsinki Watch and eventually became chair of the division that worked in East and Central Europe, and ultimately became chair of worldwide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=772.0,797.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThat's in the early '80s, mid-'80s? What's the…?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=797.0,800.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI became a member of Human Rights Watch, Helsinki Watch, probably in 1983 or four, and became the chairman later on, late '80s, early '90s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=800.0,813.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWhat are some of the countries or issues that you all were focused on at that time period, 1983, 1984?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=813.0,819.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, the most active work was in the later '80s. And Human Rights Watch, now 500 staff, over a hundred countries, was very small in those days. And members of the board actually helped the staff by traveling with them behind the Iron Curtain to release reports or to do investigations of human rights abuses that we'd heard about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=819.0,848.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I began traveling with Jeri Laber, who was the director of the European division. And there were just some marvelous experiences that came from that. For example, 1989 October, I was in Wenceslas Square when the Velvet Revolution began. I don't know the exact date. Let's say it was somewhere between 26th and 29th of October. The dictator said, \"National Day, come to Wenceslas Square.\" Not very many people showed up at noon. Vaclav Havel said, \"I'm going to be at the other end at three o'clock,\" and the square filled with thousands and thousands of people. Police broke it up with water cannons. The square was really a rectangle with streets crossing it. Crowd then moved on to the old town square, smaller. Same thing happened, water cannons.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=848.0,904.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then we began, now being dark in October, five o'clock, to march up to the castle across the river, see the government. There, the police drew the line and began to beat people. I took a picture, flash camera, wearing this blue blazer and got dragged into where people were being beaten, although my Czech guide shouted out who I was, and they decided they would just strip the film from the camera and not hold me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=904.0,937.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I then called a person I knew, Rita Klimova, who later was Havel's first ambassador to the U.S., and she said, \"Come over to my apartment. A number of us are gathering, figure out what to do.\" So I went over, and here were the leaders of the Velvet Revolution. Havel was not there, but on the phone. And they then began to say, \"Well, is this the beginning of a revolution? Because if it is and we don't press it, history will damn us. And if it isn't and we press it, we go to jail.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=937.0,970.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So they began to work out a typology for how would you know if a big crowd was actually the beginning of something. So who was in the crowd? Obvious question. Wholly different group than usual. Police, how confident did they look? Did they look like they'd really stand up for the regime or back down? We answered those questions and ultimately decided, \"Hey, this is the beginning of something, so we're going to press it.\" And they did, and government fell and Havel came in and you know the history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=970.0,1004.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nNow, I see clearly there's a role for you to analyze and try to understand what's going on, but at the time, are you… the role is as an observer or also to participate? Can you walk us through a little bit the role of a Human Rights Watch member?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1004.0,1022.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, there, I was a humble observer. I gave my views, but I was not... No, this is local. Human Rights Watch is not an organization that comes in with all the answers and here's how you must do it. Our role is to support local people who are fighting for democracy and fighting for human rights.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1022.0,1047.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWhat are some of the ways that you all would try to support them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1047.0,1050.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, one thing we would do is bring their stories to the public, to the Western world. And we would, in those days, do a lot of advocacy in Washington with factual information about human rights abuses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1050.0,1068.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you have press releases, you have contacts in…?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1068.0,1071.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1071.0,1071.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\n... Congress or the State Department?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1071.0,1073.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nSure. And often we'd rescue people and bring them out and give them a safe haven in the U.S. or the UK or some other Western country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1073.0,1083.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAt Human Rights Watch or the many institutions you've been part of, are there other key moments, things that you're proud of that you remember or you'd want to highlight?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1083.0,1096.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, fast forward, we're in Belgrade releasing a report on genocide in Srebrenica. I'm walking with the staff person, Jeri Laber, and I say, \"What's that building there? It looks pretty official and there are guards outside.\" She said, \"That's Milosevic's office.\" I said, \"Well, let's have a 60 Minutes moment. I'll go up and say we want to see Milosevic to give him our report on genocide in Srebrenica. They'll turn me away, we get a picture, and then we'll make that public.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1096.0,1132.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I went up and asked the guard, who said, \"Okay.\" So I said to Jeri, \"Come on over.\" So we went up and before we knew it, we were sitting with Milosevic's key deputy, gave him the report, told him about the contents, which were war crimes, and he said he'd give it to Milosevic, and then wrote us a letter like a good bureaucrat he was, and said, \"Thanks for visiting. I gave the report on Srebrenica to President Milosevic, who has read it.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1132.0,1165.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, this turned out then to be evidence used against Milosevic and indicting him in the special war crime tribunal on the former Yugoslavia. And Jeri Laber, my colleague, was meant to testify, but I think she never did because I think he died before the trial came to an end. But there's an example of something we did, really had enormous consequences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1165.0,1192.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Third example, then I'll stop. Revolution in Romania. The dictators, Ceaușescus, were killed. I got myself into Vienna, wanting to go to Bucharest, the capital, to observe firsthand what was going on. Vienna was the home of the International Helsinki Federation, a group of all of us, led by Prince Karl Schwarzenberg. So he and I got on the first plane, civilian plane, to land in Bucharest after the revolution. We were there and we met with the group that had killed the Ceaușescus and were now in power, and talked about how to build a decent regime that was respectful of human rights. So there were those moments in history where I got to be there at critical times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1192.0,1258.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIt's quite a bit from civil rights to the end of the Cold War.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1258.0,1263.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nBut the two are connected because it was really the concern with civil rights in the U.S. that led me then to broaden my human rights perspective for the rest of the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1263.0,1276.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nCould you tell us a little bit more about that, how you imagined that connection from civil rights at home to human rights abroad? I know it's a broad question, but I know you've thought about it quite a bit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1276.0,1287.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I mean, I just really learned firsthand about the injustice and inequality and prejudice in the United States, something I really hadn't seen much of from my small town in Connecticut. But really through the lens of the work I did at Yale and the talent search, began to see that there are all these smart people who were really being held back, and it's just so antithetical to what the U.S. stands for and what my forefathers in 1680 came to do. So I felt some obligation as an old family here to try to be faithful to the Founding Fathers' vision.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1287.0,1329.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Also, there was a chaplain at Yale, William Sloane Coffin, who was very active in civil rights. And when I was just a freshman, sophomore, he encouraged us to go on freedom rides, and the closest place was the Eastern Shore of Maryland. So I would drive in a Volkswagen bus, pick up some women from Sarah Lawrence, and we'd go down and we'd march at segregated restaurants along the Eastern Shore of Maryland and then confronted the hatred that I hadn't really fully imagined until I was down there and feeling it myself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1329.0,1366.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd for you, how does that transition into thinking about and engaging in issues related to the Cold War and Eastern Europe?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1366.0,1377.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I think once you're aware that there are people who suffer and can be helped by outside volunteer intervention, and given The New School's history, and it was really I don't know that I would've come upon the work in Europe had it not been for Professor Jeffrey Goldfarb and Andrew Arato and others who had begun this work. I simply was asked to help and it all went from there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1377.0,1412.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYeah, thank you. I would love to learn more about the MacArthur Foundation and the Academy of Arts and Sciences. We can go there or we can go to the EastWest Institute. What path would you like to go?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1412.0,1424.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI'm happy to talk about MacArthur.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1424.0,1427.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay. Could you tell us how you got in that role? What was that transition like? What were your goals there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1427.0,1434.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I tell students that I mentor that networks are very important, and I tell them, and they hardly believe me, that I never looked for a job. Every job found me my whole life. So when I'm out there as vice president of the University of Chicago, I worked a lot with the trustees. And it turns out two of the Chicago trustees were on the three person search committee for a new president of the MacArthur Foundation based in Chicago. So I'd been 17 years at The New School, but I kept in touch with George Ranney and Elizabeth McCormick, and I guess that search for the third president of MacArthur hadn't gone all that well and I guess they got talking one night and said, \"Hey, why don't we talk to Fanton? He's been around The New School for a long time.\" And I had already been thinking about, \"Well, maybe foundation work would be a good next step.\" So out of nowhere, I got contacted and quickly came to the head of the class and got the job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1434.0,1501.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I put in terms, so two five-year terms with a review in between was the length I knew I was going to serve. And MacArthur, after we had slimmed it down some, and my day focused on the following areas of work: the international division was conservation, women's health, human rights, peace and security, principally the nuclear threat, and migration mobility. The domestic program was community, neighborhood development, K-12 education, juvenile justice reform, and housing, affordable rental housing preservation. In addition, there are the famous MacArthur fellows that everybody knows, but that's only 5% of the money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1501.0,1559.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nInteresting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1559.0,1559.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nAnd then we did a lot of work in supporting public television and radio and independent documentaries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1559.0,1564.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo how do you design programming around those various fields?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1564.0,1568.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, MacArthur had been doing even more, and I wanted to focus it. It was high 175 to 200 million a year in my day. So a lot, but not huge, given the issues. So I had each of the program directors work out a plan that would say, \"Here is the issue, here's our point of intervention, and here's the strategy for making a difference, and here's how we would know we've made a difference.\" Not going to solve any of those problems, but can you make an incremental step that's significant? That was our objective. So each area had a work plan, and then the grants were made within the context of the work plan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1568.0,1618.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIt sounds like an extroverted sense of university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1618.0,1622.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1622.0,1623.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo it's not the students, but it's the community that you're trying to design curriculum for, in a way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1623.0,1628.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYes, and you're listening to people in the field. You're not... Maybe I don't want to say what I was about to say, but there are some foundations that think they have the answer, and so to dictate from the top, \"Here's the answer, poor Africa and women's health,\" that's not what we did. We picked a point of intervention, which was maternal mortality reduction, and then we listened to people on the ground. Not just government people, but people working in local communities.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1628.0,1662.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Our strategy was to support what we call anchor institutions, which would be international institutions like Human Rights Watch, but then we would always support local NGOs. And sometimes we would have to start, put money, at a risk, into startup NGOs. But the idea was to build a network of local NGOs working with regional and international NGOs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1662.0,1692.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you have everything from education to aid in that mix?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1692.0,1696.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1696.0,1696.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay. Yeah, thank you for that. Let's transition, and then we can come back to some of these issues. Your engagement with the EastWest Institute. How did you first hear about EWI, and what was your role with EWI?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1696.0,1713.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I taught history at Yale for a number of years, and one of my very best students, Stephen Heintz, worked for EWI, and I think he was in charge of the Prague office, and then he moved eventually to the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, of which he's been a really talented president for many years, still is. And he was on the board of EWI at one point. And when EWI, which began in 1981 by John Mroz, began to lose its momentum after John died in 2014, the board, I think rightly, decided that, \"Well, maybe without John's inspirational leadership, we're not going to raise the funds or maybe even have the vision to continue at the high level that he set for us. And rather than run it down and disappear, why don't we decide, while we're still fairly strong and active, to figure out a plan that will keep the track two work alive?\" And Stephen thought, \"Gee, Jonathan would be a good consultant.\" So he made the connection.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1713.0,1810.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, I knew EWI because MacArthur had given it about, I think, 11 grants and maybe $6.5 million over the years. Not in one lump sum, but for various Track II dialogues. So I knew of it, but I didn't know it well. Anyway, they brought me on and I worked with very talented Bruce McConnell, who was the... I don't know if he was acting director, but in effect was director and did a very good job and worked with board, including Karen Mroz, John's widow, and began to look for a home for the Track II dialogues, but then also a home for the archives, for the legacy, and for training a new generation of people who know about Track II and supporting research for people who would study Track II and why it's been important over the years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1810.0,1878.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So the first part was placing the active Track II programs, and most of them went to the Stimson Center in Washington. One of the China dialogues has gone to the Bush Center, another to the Atlantic Council, but most of them are at the Stimson Center and doing well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1878.0,1899.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Then when it came time, to the kind of Mroz legacy, the archives, first place we looked were John's two institutions, Notre Dame and Fletcher, Tufts, and I went and talked there and they were both receptive. But it was clear that while they were receptive, it felt a little bit like they were doing us a favor. That worried me a little bit, thinking back to my MacArthur years. And Hilton Smith then suggested, \"Why don't you think about the College of Charleston?\" Because John actually had a connection here when he gave advice about the founding of LCWA.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1899.0,1951.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I explored that, and yes, there was the connection. So I came down and visited with leadership here, including Tim Johnson, and members of the faculty, and I got a very good feeling. I didn't know the College of Charleston, but I got a very good feeling about the quality of people here, about the relatively new school of which this would be a member, and also a feeling that we would be adding value to the College of Charleston. That we're bringing something they would appreciate. Not just the little endowment money, which we did bring, but mainly the connections, the perspective, the network. That cinched it for me, and so I recommended that we locate the legacy here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=1951.0,2002.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nNow, are you working by yourself on this, or is there a committee?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2002.0,2007.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nThere's a committee. Yes. I'm a minor. My role is not as big as I just portrayed it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2007.0,2012.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWell, I was just wondering how the dialogue worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2012.0,2013.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nNo, I'm just staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2013.0,2016.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOkay. Is there 10 of you, 12 of you? How-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2016.0,2018.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI've forgotten, but I'd say maybe eight or something. You can find out. Karen probably would remember better than I who exactly was on it. But certainly Karen and Hilton Smith and Bill Eide and John Hurley and others.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2018.0,2037.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWe can look at those in the archives.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2037.0,2038.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2038.0,2039.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you go out, do your research, come sit around the table, and then report what you-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2039.0,2043.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah, and Bruce McConnell was very important. I mean, he was doing a very good job as a day-to-day leader, but also rather than being protective of trying to keep independent, he was very active working with me and travel with me to a number of places to find a good home. So he should go down in history as a really important figure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2043.0,2067.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nIn your New York days, did you meet John Mroz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2067.0,2072.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI don't think I ever did. Certainly knew of him, but I... We may have been in the same room at some event, but I do not have a clear recollection of having met him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2072.0,2081.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you came in more to support the legacy and the transition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2081.0,2084.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah, though I knew of him through MacArthur's support of EWI.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2084.0,2091.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd for you in particular, why did you want to be part of EWI in that moment? Were there shared visions or goals that you felt compelled by?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2091.0,2103.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, yes. I mean, through all of the work I'd done at Human Rights Watch and at The New School, MacArthur, conflict prevention was very high on my scale. And MacArthur had an office in Russia, so I did a lot of work with Russia, and I was particularly interested in the Russian dialogue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2103.0,2128.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So yeah, it was something that I believed in. And also having worked at a foundation and seen lots of NGOs that didn't make it, I admired a board that was clear about the importance of the mission and keeping it alive and not waiting until it had run down to the point where it couldn't be saved or placed, but wanted to work from strength. And we had considerable endowment to give to whoever took the archives. And we had grants that kept the China dialogue and the Russia dialogue going for some years. And much better to give an organization, a living, healthy organization than one that was on its last legs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2128.0,2185.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd I feel that from the early '80s into the present, you seem to have a parallel history and experience with EWI in terms of your goals. Maybe you could talk us through this a bit, the Cold War coming to an end and then the expectations or the hopes you had at the end of that time period, which I think EWI had as well, and perhaps where you're at now in terms of… an analysis of those expectations, the change versus the continuity, if you follow me on that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2185.0,2222.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYeah, I do. Obviously disappointed, especially in Russia. The New School and Professor Goldfarb again, a few years ago, started what he calls Democracy 2.0 project. It was basically bringing some of the people we worked with in the '80s, who were still going, and their students together to talk about what went wrong. We were so hopeful in the early '90s about Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and now there's a lot of backsliding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2222.0,2262.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So were our expectations too high? Were there things we should have done we didn't do? What can we learn? And we have expanded the group from beyond just the Central, Eastern Europe region to people from Turkey and South America and so forth. And there's now been for several years, a lively seminar going on this topic, that I'm still interested in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2262.0,2288.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't think we have the answer, but one of the answers clearly is that we're naive to think that you have an election and somebody you like wins and democracy is there. We don't understand and didn't understand how long it takes to build the culture, the prerequisites for a sustainable democracy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2288.0,2318.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that observation then led me to appoint a commission at the American Academy with Stephen Heintz again as one of the co-chairs, to look at how to strengthen American democracy. They put out a report called Our Common Purpose that you might be interested in reading, but with 30 specific recommendations about how to strengthen American democracy. But making the point that to strengthen American democracy, there are technical things we need to do, but we also need to work on sustaining the civic culture. We need to worry about civic education at all ages. Because there has to be a culture that will support democracy. You can't just do it mechanically. And I think we really didn't understand that countries that have never really had a democratic past probably couldn't sustain a democracy even if on paper, they had one overnight, so to speak.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2318.0,2384.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\n1989, 1990, what is your mindset at that moment? How are you feeling about what's going on in the world in your work?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2384.0,2393.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nThen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2393.0,2394.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYes, at that point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2394.0,2395.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I think optimistic. Feeling really good and naive, I would say, in retrospect. But no, I think we were genuinely hopeful, because people like Havel, whom we knew, were in office, they were appointing good people. And many of the people who were parts of our seminar became ministers of justice or education or things. No, it looked very hopeful. And Russia still was continuing to open up all through the '90s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2395.0,2430.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you're making multiple trips to Russia in the 1990s, early 2000s or-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2430.0,2434.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYes, because MacArthur had an office there and we worked on human rights and higher education. It started with higher education, bringing the Bologna Process, working with the minister of education to 15 universities around Russia. By Bologna I mean bringing research and teaching together in the same institutions where they've been a divide, teaching at universities and research at independent institutes. So the government wanted to bridge that gap, and so we picked 15 universities and we pumped, we in the Carnegie Foundation, I don't know, tens of millions of dollars in, and it was working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2434.0,2474.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That gave us good ties with the ministry of education, but also we supported private universities, the European University at St. Petersburg, the New Economic School, School of... What was it? Higher Economics? And other schools in the region, but those were three in Russia. And over time, some of the graduates of those schools began to have high level positions in the Russian administration over the 10-year period. So we were able to work when Soros was sort of bad news, in Russia, MacArthur could do pretty much what it wanted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2474.0,2518.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThe goal was to work with universities or educators in order to prepare leadership?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2518.0,2524.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nYes. Yeah. And to bring in this new model, which we hoped would work in those 15 universities, which were spread all across Russia, not just the two big cities. And that that would herald a change. And it did. Although interestingly, the last few months, Putin has canceled the Bologna Process, which is interesting. Disappointing, obviously.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2524.0,2549.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And human rights groups, we supported over a hundred human rights groups, maybe more, from the large Helsinki group that Lyudmila Alexeyeva ran, to smaller groups all across Russia.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2549.0,2565.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAnd in your opinion, I'll try not to word this too poorly, these efforts, how are they... They push things in a certain direction, but clearly in hindsight, not enough. So my question is what explains that gap between…?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2565.0,2585.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI think it's what I said earlier. It takes years to change a culture. So to build a culture where human rights is respected, that's a very long process. It's both national groups like the Moscow Helsinki Committee, but also local groups. I mean, we had groups that were taking cases to the European Court of Human Rights, not the ICC, but the regional court, and winning them. So we were working at all levels, but it was going to take a long time. And there now is, of course, a generation of younger people who had a taste of what a more open world would look like and still want it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2585.0,2636.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nSo you still believe the arc is bending, can bend?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2636.0,2639.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI think it's not over, but it's a reverse that will take some years to get out of. But I still think there's some progress there that we've built upon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2639.0,2650.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm on the board of American University of Afghanistan now. Got shut down, and working in exile online for kids that are still there. But interesting, we had more applicants from young Afghans after the Taliban takeover for last fall than we'd ever had before. So this is a younger generation of men and women in Afghanistan who are willing to put their fate in the hands of an American university in Afghanistan. So they must be telling themselves, \"Well, I'm 20 years old, I'm going to live a while. There'll still be a moment when this training will be useful, but it may be a while.\" And I think that's the attitude of younger people in Russia that we supported.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2650.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nWe've addressed this in various ways, but to revisit, could you tell us a bit more what you think the role of a university is in a nation or a global community actively seeking more human rights and calling for democracies and…?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2700.0,2721.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I think the university as an institution doesn't get involved in politics, or shouldn't. But obviously the students who are trained and the faculty who have freedom to do research, if they do have that freedom, are contributing. So you're building a group of people across the age span, but especially younger people, who will be aware and dedicated to international human rights standards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2721.0,2752.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nYeah, thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2752.0,2752.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nBut it's a long run. It's not a short-term project. And the connections they make with people in other countries and more democratic countries, those are valuable personal connections. And I still keep in touch with people I worked with in Russia. We have to be careful that we don't get them in trouble with our communications, but we're still talking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2752.0,2776.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nAre there other elements or issues you'd like to talk about, things that I haven't addressed or asked?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2776.0,2786.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2786.0,2786.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nI'm sure there's many things that we could do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2786.0,2787.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nI'm sure there are, but I do think we made the right choice in bringing the archives and the educational research program to the College of Charleston, and I'm very hopeful that it will take root here. And I'm so glad to be participating in this oral history project.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2787.0,2809.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nSo I'm optimistic about that. And the Stimson Center, which inherited the Russian U.S. military to military dialogue, turns out that is still going on, and that's not widely known. But there are four well-placed former U.S. generals and four well-placed former Russian generals that are talking, and each is in communication, White House, Kremlin. So that's what Track II's about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2809.0,2848.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThe legacy of EWI.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2848.0,2850.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, it's still going. And I don't think there are any other high level conversations that are ongoing. There may be a meeting here or a meeting there, but this is a systematic, continuing dialogue between two groups who know each other and presumably have some trust in each other. It's not going to end the Ukrainian war, but might it have an effect on whether it goes nuclear? I don't know. But I think we can be happy that EWI lives on through active Track II work, and it's important to connect the students here with that work. And I'm very happy that a group of our global ambassadors will be going, I guess in March, to Washington and will be meeting with the Stimson Center. So that's good. They're going to hear all about this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2850.0,2909.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nOne last question then, thinking of those students. What advice would you offer to them as they're thinking about a career in international affairs? If there's little bits and pieces of wisdom that you'd like to conclude with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2909.0,2927.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nWell, I think first of all, the whole premise of LCWA is bridging cultures, learning other languages, coming to appreciate difference and have empathy and respect for people in other countries. That is so important. And to have a generation of younger people that have those sympathies, that training, the ability to communicate with people in other countries and cultures is really very, very important, and I'm hopeful that this younger generation, led by the College of Charleston and other like-minded institutions, will lead the way. So I think education has a real role to play.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2927.0,2987.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BLAKE SCOTT\n\nThank you for sharing your insights and your story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2987.0,2990.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176/transcript/43451/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JONATHAN FANTON\n\nMy pleasure. How long did we go?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87108/file/187176#t=2990.0,2993.408"}]}]}]}