{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/542j67bs2q/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Oral history interview with Treva Williams"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["4/29/22"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Treva Williams is an activist and founder of the Charleston Area Justice Ministry."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright © Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture."]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Note"]},"value":{"en":["For more information contact the Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture, 125 Bull Street, Charleston, SC 29424."]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Statement"]},"value":{"en":["All rights reserved."]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Williams, Treva"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Brown, Millicent E., 1948-"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Church","African Americans","Political activists","Activism","Political participation","Community organization","Social movements"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["Scott, Walter, 1965-2016","Mother Emanuel AME Church","Charleston Area Justice Ministry (Charleston, S.C.)","Charleston Area Justice Ministry (Charleston, S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston (S.C.)","North Charleston (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic County"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston County (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["Avery Research Center at the College of Charleston"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}},{"label":{"en":["Resource Locator"]},"value":{"en":["AMN 1168.011.032"]}},{"label":{"en":["Digitization Specifications"]},"value":{"en":["Mp4 derivative audio and video created using Davinci Resolve. Archival masters are all mp4 files."]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2022"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Treva Williams is an activist and founder of the Charleston Area Justice Ministry."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright © Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/298/965/small/open-uri20251217-4125201-l90551_1766000480.jpg?1766000482","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20251217-4125201-l90551.mp4"]},"duration":4048.0104,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/298/965/small/open-uri20251217-4125201-l90551_1766000480.jpg?1766000482","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/298/965/original/open-uri20251217-4125201-l90551.mp4?1766000471","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4048.0104,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["DTA Interview - Treva Williams - Edited Transcript.docx [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWould you give us your name, and spell both first and last names for us?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=0.0,4.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSure. Treva Williams, T-R-E-V-A W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4.0,12.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd where are you from, Treva?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=12.0,14.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWell originally born, mostly raised in Kansas.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=14.0,18.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhat part?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=18.0,20.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWell, out in the central part of the state. Smack-dab in the middle of the state. Spent the time as a kid in Great Bend, Kansas; my middle school years in St. John, Kansas, so small, kind of rural America. But also spent time, my parents moved us out for a period of time to Arizona and California; my dad became a pastor out in California, and then we eventually made our way back to Kansas. So I spent about three years in a different part of the country then, but the majority of my life? There in Kansas. But most recently – well, the last 10 years, which actually is the longest I've ever lived anywhere - has been here in North Charleston, in the Charleston area. So since I took on the job as lead organizer of CAJM came here to help start the organization and have been here ever since.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=20.0,73.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd when was that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=73.0,75.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\n2012, summer of 2012. So 10 years ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=75.0,79.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd again, what is your formal designation, your title if you will?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=79.0,85.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI'm the lead organizer of the Charleston Area Justice Ministry; CAJM is what we refer to it as short.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=85.0,91.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay, before we get into the CAJM work - you mentioned your father being a pastor, a minister. Can you just give us a little bit of insight about what those early influences were like? However... You know, were you his pet, were you the rebellious child, or how do you kind of see those early influences?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=91.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWell I am a twin, so I like to think that we each took our own turns at rebellion, learned from one another's mistakes, those kinds of things. But really grew up - my dad became a pastor a little bit later in life, so before that was always trying to kind of - I always say he still wants to get rich quick - and so, had a restaurant business for a period of time, when I was a young child. A lot of his business dealings didn't go the greatest, and so spent a lot of time struggling financially as a family. And really that's actually what took us - I had a younger brother who was born with a lung disease and the winters of Kansas were rough for him. He wasn't supposed to survive, but then made it to two years of age, and my parents decided business was failing, marriage was failing, medical bills were drowning them, and so they sold everything they owned except for their antique kitchen table and moved us out to Tucson, Arizona.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=122.0,195.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nMy dad started working a lunch truck that he drove around to different construction sites. Got involved with a congregation out there called Pantano Christian Church, and it was really there that my dad's life got back on track, and there that he decided he wanted to become a pastor. I still remember we were driving around this beat-up old truck, a family of five, and that congregation had kind of a prayer meeting for us, as we were going to be setting out the next day for California for him to go to school at Pacific Christian College. And the pastor said, \"What can we pray for you for?\" And my dad said, \"Well, you know, we've got this beat-up old truck for a family of five and really need a different vehicle.\" And in the prayer session I stood with my mouth open to watch this family come forward and basically exchange keys with my father, and we took their sedan and drove on out to California, and he went to school there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=195.0,256.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWe lived in Pomona – so, just outside of LA - and he had some really rich experiences while there. He pastored a little congregation there that was predominantly African American and Hispanic; we were actually the only white family that was in that congregation. It was a non-instrumental Church of Christ, so I think that's really where my kind of love of music really flourished in that congregation. And yeah, had some good times there but then got his first full-time pastoral position back where he'd grown up in Pawnee Rock, Kansas, so went to this little town of 100 people in rural Kansas where he pastored his first church. I went to middle school during that time in Pawnee Rock and then he got a different congregation in St. John, Kansas where I ended up in high school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=256.0,313.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd St. John's was a little bit bigger?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=313.0,315.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nA little bit - 1,500 people, so it was growing slightly. [Laughter.] Yeah, and then I went on to Sterling College there - in Kansas, a small liberal arts school there - had a great experience there. Studied music education; thought I'd eventually teach music but instead worked for nine years -  my husband taught for a couple of years and I stayed home with our kids - and volunteered with youth in my church, and also was a coach at the high school. But it was really, he came home one day and was like, “I don't want to do this anymore.” And I was like, “Well, I never really pictured myself as a stay-at-home mom.” So, I ended up getting a job at a congregation as a youth director and was responsible for birth through college age youth, and programming, and all that, and spent nine years doing that, loved it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=315.0,372.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nBut it was really during that time that I got really frustrated and angry with the Church, just the Church in general and its inability to really impact the lives of the youth I was serving, and impact the systems that were really controlling their lives. And came home one day and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do but it's not this. And so started really researching kind of what is it that I want to do, and started reading a lot more about community organizing, came across congregational based community organizing, started reading about some of those national networks doing that work, and found a job opportunity through the Direct Action and Research Training, applied for a fellowship in Columbus, Ohio and got accepted, and that's where I got my organizer training for about four months, before I was asked to apply for the position here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=372.0,430.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nMy goodness, you have said a whole lot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=430.0,433.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI know, I know. [Laughter.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=433.0,434.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nNo, but I mean... But what a rich background. The exposure, I think my ears peaked when you said about the exposure in a congregation of color out in California, for sure. That must have been quite an awakening from your Kansas experience, or even Arizona experience; can you talk about that a little bit? As far as whether that aided in this, or... Not “aided”, but kind of promoted, this frustration with the church? I mean, just tell us a little bit about what that frustration was built on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=434.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI definitely think those years planted in my brain that were all very similar as people. I was going to a school at that time with 1,000 kids in it, so I'd come from this very small community to a very large school. And had a fantastic experience, there loved the church we were in and the people in it. And when I really think back, and then when I got into actually working and taking a paycheck from a congregation - which I always said I would never do; as a preacher's kid, I just saw too many times where I felt like-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=480.0,523.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDirty money?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=523.0,524.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWell, that... You wondered, you were always like, “Is that really where the money should be going?” And then, also, just seeing the way sometimes the church would treat my father, individuals in congregations, I was always like, “I will never work for a church.” But it just so happened that the pastor at this one congregation I applied to, which I had no idea until he called me back, was one of my religious philosophy professors in college – a man I trusted immensely, loved his courses - so it was kind of like... I almost felt like God was being like, “Okay, this is the perfect scenario. Will you at least do it in a perfect scenario?” But I do think all of those church experiences, and my dad never pastored in one denomination specifically, so he pastored that non-instrumental Church of Christ, the non-denominational Christian Church, the Methodist, Baptist, United Church of Christ - all over the board. And so, I feel like all of those experiences really taught me that we have a lot more in common than we have different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=524.0,589.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd then when I started working for the church, though and I really - I was doing a lot of reading during that time, and was seeing different impacts that the kids that I was working with were having - particularly with the criminal justice system. I had kids who came from wealthy families who seemed to always get off easily with pretty severe things that they were involved in, and then I saw kids who didn't have those same means really trapped in that system unable to get out. I had a specific instance with one of my favorite youth group kids, who was a ball player at the high school, and he and another kid had gone off to a community college in Kansas to school. He was playing basketball and he was a young Black student, and his best friend was a white football player who ended up at the same school. Went to a party one night and the white football player started a fight, severely broke a guy's jaw, and the district attorney brought felony charges against both of them. Severe felony charges, they were looking at a lot of prison time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=589.0,659.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd the district attorney came to them and said, “I'll allow you to plead to a lesser charge if both of you accept the plea deal,” although the kid from my program hadn't even laid a hand on the kid. And his best friend basically pleaded with him to accept the plea deal. And he was being represented by a public defender who was like, “You don't want to fight this, you need to take this.” So, he accepted this plea deal and spent some time in jail, had a felony on his record, watched him get out and just languish unable to get a job, just... And I was so angry, and our church had written some letters in support of him; the judge hadn't looked at the letters we'd written. And they both got the same charge, and I just came out, I remember from that day, just so angry that we had a system that was clearly unfair. And then, also, I was working for an institution that was unable to have any sort of impact on that system. I felt like as our church could at times help an individual student, but we had families who had been working jobs and making minimum wage for 20 years in our community, and to me I was just like, “Where's the voice of the church on these issues?” And it was silent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=659.0,754.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd you're talking about white families?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=754.0,756.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah. No, not just white families, I mean, but both. Yeah, and the church was just silent on so many of these issues. And it really got to where I felt like I couldn't take a paycheck from the institution any longer. And there was a part of me that just wanted to walk away and be done with church, but there was also a part of me that's like, you know, “It’s so much of my life,” that I thought if there was something I could do to help congregations live into that prophetic voice, that would be something I would want to do, which, congregational-based community organizing was the thing I decided that, perhaps, could help me stay connected to the church and my faith.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=756.0,803.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt seemed like it came at you just at the right time in your life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=803.0,809.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=809.0,810.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nCan you talk a little bit about that training, because I'm not familiar with that particular title.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=810.0,818.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, so I went and was trained through the Direct Action and Research Training Organization, so it's a national organization that trains community organizers in congregational-based community organizing. So, I went to Columbus, Ohio for about four and a half months. It was intense training; it's basically in a two-month period, or one-and-a-half-month period, I was doing over 100 one-to-ones in the congregations that I was working with, so really learning the skill of building relationships, finding common ground, and really uncovering self-interests from the people that I was working with and getting to know. Also, you know, learning a ton about how to build that people power in order to hold public officials accountable, learning a ton about what accountability looks like, what it takes, helping move people from their - you can imagine church people – and, you know, in organizing we always say that you want to do what's in the experience of your people. Well, what's in the experience of church people? [Laughter.] I mean a lot of them have a lot of experiences, but when it comes to accountability and putting pressure, it's like they don't have much experience, you know? And so-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=818.0,903.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThey pray.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=903.0,904.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=904.0,905.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThey pray as the way to-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=905.0,907.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAbsolutely, yeah. And we've been praying a long time, and these problems all still exist and have control in our neighborhoods. So, all that training helped me learn how to build relationships in order to push people to get comfortable with tension and to get comfortable with holding their officials accountable. So a lot of different readings, a lot of different roleplays, the training has tons of roleplaying different scenarios. And learning how to train leaders to sit across from an official and ask the tough questions, and then to hold their own members accountable for turning out to events for accountability.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=907.0,952.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTell us again, what year is this - or years - that-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=952.0,956.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo, this would've been the beginning of 2012, so about six months before I came here, I was going through that training.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=956.0,966.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWho else was there with you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=966.0,967.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAt the training?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=967.0,968.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah, in Columbus. And I say not so much by name, but I'm saying, what's your cohort look like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=968.0,975.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, so my cohort, what's interesting is there were actually three of us that were hired in that fellowship during that period of time, and we were placed in different locations to receive training. The thought was that potentially I could stay in Columbus as an associate organizer. And I wanted to be - I have my twin sister in Lexington, Kentucky - so I was thinking either there or we have a sister organization in Lexington, I could end up there. So, the cohort, we would meet virtually to talk through what our experiences were and to go through different training aspects together. But then at the space, I was working with a local organization there called BREAD, which I think stands for “Building Responsibility, Equity, And Dignity”. That organization's been around for a while, and so the director there - and they had three associate organizers - all helped in some degree with my local training there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=975.0,1040.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOther white organizers or were they organizers of color? Or northerners, southerners?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1040.0,1049.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, that's a good question. Man, I wonder if I can remember where they were originally all from. So, the director was a white man and then there was a white woman. I worked with a Jewish gentleman and an African American woman who were all organizing there in that space. And then the congregations we worked with were incredibly diverse.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1049.0,1075.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nBefore we move on, because I'm real curious about just that whole training process - first of all, because I don't know that a lot of people are aware that that is the kind of training that is actually available at a national level, you know? So, what's your read on why that kind of involvement in organizing isn't known, let's say, like ACLU, or NAACP, or National Action Network? I mean, what's that all about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1075.0,1122.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nHonestly, I think it’s - I hate to say this and admit it - but turf wars. I mean, even with our own national network, that training is interior training, it's insular, it's not offered to other organizations outside of the national network. It's something I've been pushing the director on because it is such a good training, and why not, you know, set it up to where anybody can get this training? I mean imagine if all of us were trained in community organizing, and didn't have to just, like, figure it out on our own, how much more effective we could be as a community. But yeah, unfortunately I think the same type of things creep in that sometimes creep in other secular and corporate spaces where you're just trying to protect your own. And to me it's harmful, that mindset is harmful and really holds us back from what we're capable of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1122.0,1186.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo by 2012 you accept the position here in, well based in North Charleston but in the Charleston area, because you're all around?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1186.0,1197.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1197.0,1199.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. Tell us what the premise is, of CAJM. I mean we call it CAJM in Charleston, but you talked about “sister organizations” with different names?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1199.0,1210.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah. Yeah, we're affiliated with the DART Network, which has 28 - so we have 27 - sister organizations from Kansas up to Ohio, Virginia, Tennessee, Florida, and South Carolina, and Georgia. So, all over the place, we have sister organizations. DART is a consulting organization with us, so they help us on issue work, they put on national trainings for our leaders that we take leaders to and things like that, so it's a really great network to be a part of. And just as an organizer having that support base that, I think we have something like 55 organizers in the network, so getting together and doing training together and those kinds of things is really great. So, the here in Charleston, CAJM, the Charleston Area Justice Ministry, was originally formed in 2012 by some local - they actually started in 2011 - kind of gathering local clergy together who were interested. But with the idea that if we can bring all of our congregations together and use the power of people that is present in these congregations, we can really shift and force our public officials attention, force our public money toward things that really can benefit the community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1210.0,1297.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd so it was their way of really working to address community problems together. And when you look at all of our faith traditions, every single one of them call us to be, what we say, doing justice, doing this work together. And so that began, I think, with a group of just maybe six to eight that kind of made up that core group in 2011. And then when I came on, I came and interviewed in 2012, met by then, I think it was, around 14 congregations that ended up covenanting with the organization originally, and then we've now grown to 41. But yeah, the purpose at the very beginning, and still is, was to build our power to address community problems.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1297.0,1344.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nCan you identify for us who some of those original-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1344.0,1348.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nOh gosh, I think I can probably think of most of them. So Reverend Joseph Darby, Rabbi-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1348.0,1357.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWho's AME?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1357.0,1358.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAME, uh-huh. Rabbi Stephanie Alexander, who is at the synagogue downtown, Reverend Nelson Rivers at Charity Baptist, Father Dow Sanderson who was at Church of the Holy Communion downtown- MILLICENT BROWN\n\nEpiscopal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1358.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nEpiscopal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1375.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nEpiscopal. TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nHe's now in Summerville. Let's see who else... Reverend Brantley, who was at St. Matthew Baptist Church in North Charleston - now his son is at that congregation, and he's retired. Oh goodness, who am I missing? Reverend Danny Reed, who was at the Unitarian Church in Charleston. Gosh, I'm sure there were a couple of others that I'm not remembering.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1375.0,1409.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nBut obviously it's an interracial group – ecumenical, you know? I'm curious about that kind of initiative you're seeing really already being in place in Charleston. How unique was that, for the Charleston area?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1409.0,1433.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, I just remembered one, Reverend Charles Hayward at St. James Presbyterian on James Island. Can't believe I could ever miss Reverend Hayward because he's been instrumental in our work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1433.0,1441.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAbsolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1441.0,1442.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo how unique was that? Well, it's funny. I think it was Reverend Hayward that actually said to me that he wasn't sure that this would work, but that if it did, he wanted to be present for it. And so, there was a lot of this skepticism, you know, from a lot of clergy, of this - “I don't know that this will ever happen but hey, let's try it and see.” So at least that willingness was there. I think there had been things tried in the past but there always seemed to be, there had been from what I gathered as I learned about congregations, there had been different times that different ones had tried to work together on different things, and some of those relationships had continued and some of them hadn't. And the idea of bringing even more in the mix, people were just like, “I don't know how this could work.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1442.0,1494.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo you think that some of it has to do with ill-defined methods or ill-defined goals?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1494.0,1502.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAbsolutely. I'm going to quote Reverend Hayward again; I'll probably say a lot of what he and Reverend Darby and Reverend Rivers have said over the years, because there's so much wisdom there. Reverend Hayward, I remember, in one of my first meetings with him he said the reason that he didn't think that this could work in Charleston was that white congregations in Charleston had a lot of experience of doing things for the Black community, but never with. And that just really resonated with me, and it resonated with me personally - I thought about my own experiences in church growing up, and what he said was true: that even the congregations I'd been a part of, that my dad led, had a lot of experience of doing things for but never really coming alongside and doing things with. And so that stayed in the back of my mind to make sure that we didn't become that as an organization, that we stayed true to doing things with one another.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1502.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd then you had your training that also was built on those principles?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1560.0,1566.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAbsolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The training that, you know, even though you go through this kind of initial training, that training and the organization continues. I still go through training with the national organization even though I've been doing the work for 10 years. So yeah, it never ends, and it's always based on those kinds of principles and those ideas that we're equal, we got to be doing this together, and really shifting mindsets that have not always thought that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1566.0,1598.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd we're going to continue [inaudible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1598.0,1602.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"]. You talked about the importance of DART as being sort of an umbrella to CAJM, and you said - I'm not sure I remember how you described it - but what's the funding for DART? This is not a government funded-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1602.0,1618.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nNo, none of us receive any government funding. DART is funded through denominational grants as well as, we pay consulting fees. So, each of the 20 organizations pay DART to consult with us so that their funding mechanisms are basically those two things, different grants and then the consulting fees.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1618.0,1642.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo how does CAJM basically fund its operation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1642.0,1649.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo, similarly, like I said, we don't take any city money, county, government money. So we're funded through, first of all our congregations pay dues to us every year. And then we have what we call our congregation investment drive, which is individuals who invest in the work. And then we're also funded through some businesses who support us, and then grants, mostly  denominational grants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1649.0,1674.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd that whole fundraising effort is done within individual communities? Like, your 26 other sister groups, they're out doing the same thing in their locales?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1674.0,1689.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nRight, we follow a similar model in the work that we do, so that includes the funding mechanisms. So they all are - we might be funded different levels in different areas, like in Charleston our organization leads the network in individual investments and another organization might lead in corporate investments - so we use the same mechanism, but it kind of falls differently, financially, on what the majority is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1689.0,1722.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. Building on this idea of doing for versus doing with, just kind of talk a little bit about... An organization like yours that's dependent - you call it “congregationally-based”, you know - where does that religious message kind of go awry? Help us, through your lens anyway, I mean people who call themselves “of faith”, where does that go off the rails, do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1722.0,1767.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI think a lot of places. [Laughter.] You know, it's interesting, we always quote Micah 6:8 in our work, \"What has he called you to do, o mortal, but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.\" Not sure I quoted that exactly right, but close enough. But this kind of idea of doing mercy that falls in there, I think one of the places we go off the rails in our congregations is that's the “doing for”, the mercy it's like helping that individual who's suffering in some way, we do a lot of that. And I think we do a lot of that because there's this, like, instant gratification for helping someone, this kind of feel-good thing. But when it's void of the “doing justice” part, of asking why someone's hungry, or why someone needs clothing, or why someone needs housing and then addressing those root causes, then how much help does it really provide? It helps a person maybe survive in the moment, but never helps them thrive. And so, I think that's definitely one place that things go awry in, kind of, our messaging and our congregations and how we're involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1767.0,1841.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI think it also goes awry, unintentionally, because really, one congregation by itself doesn't really have a lot of power. And so, to try to take on these enormous systems that have been in place, and put in place, and have been put in place intentionally to work the way they work, and to hold back specific people they want to hold back, and to promote other people - one single congregation taking on one of those systems would be impossible. And so I think part of it is they don't know any better and they don't know how to build power. And so that's one of the things that- Why we came in the picture is to help congregations understand that you can address these systems; you can hold these systems accountable if you all work together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1841.0,1891.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo those are a couple places I would say that it goes awry, but I also just think, we're getting ready next week CAJM's going through its own training with an organization called Race Forward to look at the ways in which we, as an organization, still uphold white supremacy. But I think we still exist within this larger system, you know, that was really set up specifically for certain people to be able to do things for, and people to have to receive that, I don't know if you would, I guess you can call it “kindness”, but it has a lot of unintended - sometimes intended - negative repercussions to a group of people. And so I think we exist under this kind of umbrella of white supremacy, and our congregations absolutely uphold that institution in a lot of different ways. And, you know, so all of this, getting them to come together to decide to do things with someone, but then also to look at all these underlying issues of why we've existed this way for so long is all part of the work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1891.0,1970.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThose are some pretty strong, quote unquote, “political” sentiments that you just expressed, you know, that people certainly have not always associated with their faith traditions. Can you share with us, sort of, how you went from six or seven to, now, 41? I mean, what do you think that, how that expansion actually happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=1970.0,2003.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, absolutely it happened because of building relationships - being very intentional about, every time we gathered, that we spent time in conversation with one another to get to know one another. I still say to this day if we had not built the relationships we built in our first year, we would've crumbled after our Nehemiah Action where we held Mayor Riley accountable, because there were so many people that were upset that their 40-year mayor had been held accountable in the way that he was held accountable. And if we didn't have those relationships, we easily would've splintered.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2003.0,2042.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTalk about that, when are you talking about that... Well first of all, maybe for the record let's explain Nehemiah Action.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2042.0,2051.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, yeah, sure. So our Nehemiah Action is our big event that we have each year. So our congregations, we have a process that we follow that begins in the fall where we have house meetings to have listening sessions. So our team leaders invite their members from their congregations, their coworkers, their neighbors, into their homes and really talk about what community problems make us angry, what keeps us up at night, really try to get people to talk about the struggles that we have in our personal lives. Because we think lots of times that what we're dealing with is isolated, it's me, it's because of my mistakes I've made in my life. And then when we start having conversations we start to realize wait, you also have the same problem, and you have the same problem? Maybe this isn't a personal failure, maybe the system is set up to cause me and my family to fail. And so those conversations result in all of those people coming together and voting on what we want to work on together for the year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2051.0,2107.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd then we research that problem for about four months, look for a solution to address the problem, then we look for the person who's in a position of power to give us what we want. And then we invite them to what we call the Nehemiah Action, which really is based off of the story of Nehemiah where he goes back to build the wall up around Jerusalem. There's a famine in the land and people are hungry, and so they've borrowed money from moneylenders, and they can't pay the moneylenders back because the famines continued, and the moneylenders are now taking their fields. They're forcing them to sell their children into slavery to repay their debt and they cry out to Nehemiah to do something. Nehemiah says he's angry by what he hears, that he listens, and that he organizes a large assembly of people, and he brings those moneylenders in front of the largest assembly of people and he demands that they return everything they've taken, and they do. And then he looks to the priest and he says, \"Make sure this doesn't happen again.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2107.0,2160.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd so really our Nehemiah Action is that, it is the gathering of the largest simply of our 41 congregations to come together to really show our public officials the community problem that they've allowed to continue under their watch and their positions of power. And then to show them, you know, that this is the solution that we want as a community and will you implement it? And so with the power – you know, we had 1,500 people gather together - after the pandemic last year, we had 2,400 that were on Zoom and in-person. And, you know, you can imagine, with the power of that many people with one unified voice calling on for this one solution, how you can get an official to change their minds on things. So that's the Nehemiah Action.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2160.0,2207.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nRight. And so, you were referring to what happened, when then-Mayor Riley - when was this that you're talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2207.0,2215.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo this would've been... So, we had our first Nehemiah Action in 2013; it was at St. Matthew Baptist Church. That one was issues on working to lower juvenile arrest, and also preschool education slots. So, the second year was in-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2215.0,2234.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI'm sorry, preschool education...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2234.0,2235.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, trying to get the school district to implement 300 more preschool slots a year. And then trying to get our police departments, local police departments, to basically stop incarcerating non-violent kids. Our second year was at the North Charleston Performing Arts Center; it was spring of 2014. And we were addressing the high rate of unemployment for young adults in our community at the time, I think it was 26% - ages 18 to 24 years old, 26% were unemployed; if you were African American it was 39%. And so we were calling on Mayor Riley to write a hiring policy for the City of Charleston so that, on construction projects that the city was doing, they would commit to 25% of their entry level positions - so no skill needed, no skill required - 25% of them to be filled by unemployed young adults. So that was the request.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2235.0,2303.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWe packed out the North Charleston Coliseum - had just under 2,000 people. And Mayor Riley came forward, we laid out the problem, had testimonies from people who were experiencing the problem; Reverend Charles Hayward from St. James Presbyterian Church was the negotiator for the night. And I just remember sitting on stage, and watching this negotiation, and watching Reverend Hayward do what I've seen so many Black pastors do, and that is to take control of his pulpit and to really hold the mayor accountable for what he was not willing to commit to. So, the mayor said he'd write a hiring policy, but he would not commit to being held accountable at the 25%. And so, Reverend Hayward was really working to hold him accountable and asking him why. And the mayor was skilled - as my second year as an organizer, man, I was naive. I, first of all, completely underestimated people's loyalty to a mayor who'd been mayor for 40 years. Where I'm from people aren't mayors that long.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2303.0,2376.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI don't think most places.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2376.0,2379.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, right. There's a reason we don't keep people in those position for 40 years. So I underestimated, you know, the loyalty people felt toward him. I was not prepared for what I then perceived, later, as the discomfort for white congregants seeing two men of around the same age, a white man and a Black man, engaged in a tough negotiation, and how uncomfortable that would make white - actually not just white congregational members, but a lot of people - uncomfortable. For different reasons, but a lot of people uncomfortable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2379.0,2418.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd I remember sitting there and watching this and being, like, Reverend Hayward was doing everything we had trained him to do, we had a rehearsal where we role played the whole thing. But I sat there and I started hearing members in the crowd hollering, “Respect!”, hollering, “Give him the mic!” - at that time we would hold the microphone for the public official, because our people are negotiating and they're not professional public officials that are used to up there speaking all the time, and it's our meeting - we wanted to control the mic, and so we wouldn't allow the mayor to hold the microphone which made some people started hollering from the crowd. We've learned later that it was people very connected to the mayor that did those things. But I felt the tension just rising in the space.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2418.0,2473.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd then we saw people just start to get up and leave in the middle of it. And I remember thinking to myself, “Are we going to make it through this night?” And eventually Reverend Hayward said, \"I'm gathering that this is a no, that you're not committing to the 25%. We're really disappointed in this, because we've got to be able to measure the success of this policy.\" And so we kind of wrapped that up and we came in to - we always evaluate after the event - so all of the leaders come together. And the tension and discomfort in the room and people, at that time I don't think people really had assessed... I think people knew we're going to have some work to do coming out of here, but I don't see people realized how much work. And man, my phone was ringing and my email was blowing up before I even got home that night, of people declaring we were disrespectful, and, “Oh, how dare we treat the mayor in this way,” and-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2473.0,2542.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\n...too confrontational.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2542.0,2543.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, too confrontational, who did we think we were, all sorts of stuff. So I spent I think about the next six months, we always do what we call post-action team meetings. So the clergy and then their core team gets together and we process the Nehemiah Action, what happened there, what went well, what do we need to do better. Man, those meetings were tough. I just... I went in and I just took a lot of notes. And I remember, particularly - at the time we've only had one congregation that has withdrawn from CAJM in these 10 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2543.0,2589.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThat's a very good percentage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2589.0,2592.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, yeah. And it was Grace, Grace Church-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2592.0,2597.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nGrace Episcopal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2597.0,2598.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nGrace Episcopal. And I remember coming into that post-action team meeting and sitting down, and a member from their congregation coming in - who wasn't a team leader so he wasn't even supposed to be there - and I remember just getting blasted. And I just took notes. And then at the end I said, \"Can I respond to some of your concerns?\" And then I just started walking through why we do what we do. And I remember him saying, \"Grace doesn't need CAJM.\" And I said, \"You're probably right. I mean, if you're thinking that CAJM is here to make sure that Grace members are treated fairly, I mean, you're probably right.\" But I said, \"But if you're here for the reason other congregations like Grace is here, which is to build relationships with people that you normally would never get to build relationships with, and to do really important work, then we are the right group for Grace. But I guess that's something you have to decide.\" And we ended up shaking hands and went on with our business, and a year later they withdrew. And, you know, I'm not even sure it was tied to that night; it felt like it was tied to that night.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2598.0,2683.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nBut we had a lot of similar conversations, I remember going into Circular Congregational Church who's been, I mean a stalwart in the organization, and hearing how upset leaders were at what they perceived was disrespect. But I also remember the youngest team leader there, who probably I would guess was maybe in his late 30s saying, \"You think we disrespected the mayor? The mayor disrespected us.\" And I just remember when he said that, I was like, “He's right.” It had been in my head, but nobody had said it, you know, before that. And so then there was this really great debate between these individuals. And what was helpful about what that was, in that space they got to hear from people who thought differently than them, which was one of the first spaces that I'd been in where there was disagreement. Now I was in a lot of congregations that was like, “That's exactly what we should be doing, every time.” A lot of them felt fine with what happened that night, but it-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2683.0,2753.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nCan you differentiate? I mean, were there more of the Black churches felt fine versus-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2753.0,2759.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAbsolutely, absolutely. More of the Black churches felt more comfortable with it. Now, there were individual members who were like, “When people started hollering in the crowd,” and “That made me uncomfortable,” but for the most part the idea of holding the mayor to that level of accountability was something many of them have been doing, many of the clergy that I've been working with in those congregations have stood toe-to-toe with many officials over the years, and so this was not something new to them. Yeah, but it took a lot of conversations together. So we were really intentional; that next kind of process, we have one section of our year where we have what we call network meetings. And usually those were congregational-based but I was like “Man, we've got to get out of these echo chambers and into spaces where we're hearing differently from one another.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2759.0,2817.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo, we had congregations pair up, particularly Black and white congregations pair up, and we processed some of that night. We actually used video, and we did training over it, and really tried to help people. Because I think sometimes people get so uncomfortable in a moment they don't remember the event correctly. I had white members not remembering who actually was on stage. I'd be like “No, that's the wrong pastor.” But also, just thinking that Reverend Hayward said certain things that he did not say – so, pulling that video out and being like, “Let's look at this together. Now that you've got some space from it, let's look at it together and let's talk about what was really going on,” which really produced some really incredible conversations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2817.0,2870.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nI remember talking with a woman from the Unitarian Church and asking her, really, where her discomfort was, and asking her, “Was it because a Black pastor, same age group she is, was holding this white mayor accountable to that level?” And she wrestled with it. She said, \"I don't know, maybe that is where my discomfort is.\" So a lot of stuff like that started happening in the organization at that time, we were kind of... I would like to say we were proactive and decided to do this and kind of start tackling the race conversation at that time intentionally, but it really was in response to what happened that night.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2870.0,2918.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd this is before Walter Scott.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2918.0,2920.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nIt was before Walter Scott. It really got us moving in the direction, in the place we should have been at the start, but it moved us much more rapidly in that direction. I remember we came into the fall after that Nehemiah Action, and we easily could have voted to address racial discrimination and policing at that community problems assembly; we had the power built in the Black congregations to pass that vote. And I remember a conversation with Reverend Rivers and Reverend Hayward about it, and both of them expressing concerns that, with what we had kind of dealt with - with that reaction at that Nehemiah Action and coming into that vote - are we going to see this fall on race lines? And I knew we wouldn't, because Circular Congregation was committed to voting with them whichever way they went, but they both showed a lot of wisdom that I was lacking. You know, I'm a little hardheaded sometimes, I'm like, “Let's just do it, it'll work itself out,” or whatever. But they were just like “No, wage theft impacts our congregations, we're going to ask our people if they'll consider putting their votes in that direction.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=2920.0,3002.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd it was a close vote and we voted on wage theft, but then we came around that spring and Walter Scott was killed, Mother Emanuel happened that summer, and we came into our listening sessions and into that next vote, and, you know, it was almost 70% of the vote went toward police discrimination. And I think from the very beginning CAJM's always talked about our issues and how it impacts - like even when we were working the same year we did the Mayor Riley hiring policy - we also started working with the school district to address suspension. So we always talked about our issues, and were honest about how it was impacting the Black community, but I really think it was in those times and those moments where we really started to kind of define as an organization who we were, and the things we were going to work on, and the issues we're going to tackle together was really influenced by those times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3002.0,3070.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHave you been either disappointed or encouraged as you all made that move? I mean, have your congregations been sort of pulled along or did you feel as if people are beginning to get it now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3070.0,3090.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, I mean people are definitely beginning to get it now, I feel like. I do feel in that time - I mean, I want to give credit to the white congregations. Like, I remember Reverend Hayward, we were walking out of the Coliseum that night, the North Charleston Performing Arts Center, I guess, we were walking out of that space and he had said to me when we were rehearsing for the event, and he was negotiating and I was Mayor Riley [laughter] and he was negotiating with me, there was already responses from some of our white members that they were uncomfortable. And so we were changing things up, how about if he were to say it this way, whatever. We walk out and he says to me, \"This is when the white congregations head for the hills.\" And he had been saying that to me all along, like, “They're going to be in this work until it gets tough.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3090.0,3143.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd I just looked at him and I said, \"I really hope you're wrong.\" And then we had the night that happened, and I remember pulling in my driveway and just sitting in my car and thinking to myself, “Am I going to just sit and watch everything we've worked on crumble before my eyes?” You know? “Are they going to leave?” Because that was the threat coming from a lot of them was we can't stay a part of this. And I want to credit the white clergy that came alongside at the very beginning of this organization and worked to build relationships, because they were basically like, “Not on my watch. We are not walking away on my watch.” And they did so much work in their own congregations - I mean phone calls, meetings, you know. I remember Reverend Rutledge at Circular, his kind of ongoing mantra has become when his people were upset with us that first year, holding Dr. McGinley accountable, and she was a member of his congregation-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3143.0,3207.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nShe was the superintendent?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3207.0,3209.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nThe superintendent, and she was a member of his congregation. Him saying, \"At the end of the day Dr McGinley's going to go home, she has what she needs, but we've got people who their kids need preschool education.\" Or in that second year, when we were putting pressure on her for school suspension, she's going to go home, she has what she needs; we got kids being put out of the classroom, being put out of school that need an education. So, a lot of them really worked within their own congregations to keep them at the table. And then organizers did the work, Black pastors did the work, we all were, you know, working hard to really tap into those relationships and just say, “We need to keep this together because what we're doing here is really important.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3209.0,3256.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd yeah, but I would say during those times, those years – you know, even though we had almost 70% of the vote go toward racial bias in policing - I still remember people just not believing that police were biased and discriminatory, and going through a research process, and looking at the numbers, and hearing the testimonies over and over you could start to see minds start to shift on that, and them letting go of these kind of beliefs that they've held on to for so long. But it was a process, even after that vote, of... I remember we wrote - staff wrote - an editorial equating, well, we talked about the history of policing in Charleston - about slave patrols. And this was when the mayor was refusing to do the audit – well, he had hired a company that wasn't credible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3256.0,3320.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nNow this is Mayor Tecklenburg?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3320.0,3321.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nRight, Mayor Tecklenburg had hired a company, had never done a racial bias on it before, and we were fighting that decision. And so, we'd written an editorial that we wanted to submit to the Post and Courier that talked about the history of slave patrols and really talking about what we have learned in our listening sessions about the distrust that existed in the community between police. And we talked about the mayor and the police chief at that time - Chief Molin - and it came before the executive board, and it got a majority vote to put it forward. And I remember at the time one of our white pastors being like, “My congregation's not going to be okay with this. This editorial is real close to comparing the current police department to slave patrols.” [Laughter.] Yeah, right? I mean, I was looking... The numbers speak for themselves. I remember him saying to Reverend Rivers, \"I'm just not there, help me get there.\" And Reverend Rivers is looking at him saying, \"That is not my job, that is your job.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3321.0,3395.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd so there was this debate that happened at the board level, and we settled on a couple pastors are going to work on it to soften it a bit. And then it just, we softened it, but there was still resistance. And I remember it being basically trashed, and it didn't get submitted anywhere close to what it originally was. And I just remember really being disappointed in that moment, but also recognizing, like we are nowhere where we need to be, as an organization. And so we were very intentional about the conversations we started having in congregations, and really pushing the envelope a bit on what we were saying, how we were saying it... And then when we came around to that Nehemiah Action, which - let me point out, the first action we had with Mayor Tecklenburg, I think we had 2,100 people, and people were real uncomfortable with that negotiation that took place on stage. It was with Reverend Rivers and Mayor Tecklenburg. We knew we were going to lose people over it; didn't lose any congregations, but lost people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3395.0,3469.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd so then the editorial thing happened, and we just became real intentional and real direct on how we were talking about police and race. And then by the time we got back around - and I remember Arthur McFarland saying to me, because I was stressed about, “We're going to drop from 2,100 people to maybe 1,200, 1,300, we're going to take a major hit over this.” And him saying, “Yeah, but think about it. If those 1,200 or 1,300 people are sitting in those seats and they sit there through elevated tension to get this police audit, isn't that better than having those extra 700 or 800 who can't handle it?” And I was like, “Oh, that's a really good point.” And so we came in and we were right, 1,300 people showed up, and we said everything from that stage that was in that editorial, publicly, and we started saying it publicly at every city council after that. So when you think about the movement that we made from the executive board to congregations during the time, it's really kind of phenomenal, how much progress was made in that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3469.0,3546.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd I know it's hard to be too definitive with this, but how would you compare the Charleston community, say, with what's happening around the country - with some of your other sister organizations? I mean are we unique in the numbers, or the percentages, and the willingness to take those hard lines, as compared to whether it's Lexington or someplace else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3546.0,3582.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nWell, the problems that we're experiencing, policing-wise, is the same in all those cities, but we definitely were the first organization to take on anything defined on race as clearly as what we defined it, and policing. Like, all the other cities had been hands-off policing up to that point in time. And I remember us going to trainings after that and some of our members would be asked to share what we were working on, and we would have members from other organizations coming up and being like, “I can't believe you guys are taking this on,” you know? Being so excited about it. And now we've got many organizations in our network that are taking on policing, so a lot of really incredible work that's happening in the network, everything from working to get municipal IDs for undocumented citizens and putting pressure on police to get behind that, to also working to address the kinds of stops that we were working on. So, yeah, a lot of really good work happening in the network on it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3582.0,3652.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo, as we wrap this up - I think I already know your answer, but still - you want to talk to us a little bit about your optimism for where this work is going, especially locally?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3652.0,3668.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, CAJM is on the precipice for some massive growth and securing some significant power, I believe. Just even during the pandemic we added nine congregations, which was kind of shocking to think that we could do that during a pandemic time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3668.0,3694.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhen a lot of people weren't even going to church in-person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3694.0,3697.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nExactly, right. And some of those congregations have been significant. So, Mount Mariah Missionary Baptist Church, you know - the largest Black Baptist Church in North Charleston - became a member of CAJM during that time. You've got this brand-new congregation of West Ashley, Grace City that is, I mean, I went to church there, and I was like, “I am the oldest person here by far.” And I think they have an average worship attendance of 300, and they're like three years old, I mean they're just exploding as a congregation. The nine congregations we've added are significant, Mount Pleasant Presbyterian Church, which I courted for seven years, finally joined during that time, you know? And that's our first Mount Pleasant congregation, it moves us into a space that we really haven't even-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3697.0,3748.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd they're very clear about your defined goals? I mean they're not kind of coming in to be easygoing; they know that you're going to be fact-based and hard-hitting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3748.0,3762.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYes, yeah. Which, I think, is why it took seven years, to be honest. It took a lot of really working to help them understand who we are, and how we work, and those kinds of things. So I think the organization is really on the precipice for some really great things. We did a strategic plan: that we plan to have 90 congregations by 2030, turning out 7,000 people to a Nehemiah Action. If you think 7,000 people gathering together to put pressure on public officials? There's not going to be an official across the state who's not going to pay attention to that. We're getting better all the time at our own skills, I mean, I think our ability to negotiate publicly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3762.0,3809.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nAnd I think one of the key things what we're doing is really helping our people get even more comfortable with tension, and creative – creative with how they wield power. So, for instance, one of the campaigns we did this year, we're trying to get the medical university to fund a mobile health clinic. Well, we have this idea to paint these banners that said, which one will MUSC bring into your neighborhood? And we painted a mobile clinic and we painted a hearse. And it took some processing with members about, this was the first time we were going to kind of go negative with MUSC and the necessity, and so a lot of conversations happened over why it was necessary. And it's truthful, you know? It's like MUSC holding off on funding a mobile clinic literally is saying, “We don't care about the people who need access to healthcare. They can go ahead and die because we're going to do our own thing.” That's what they're saying. And our people were like, let's do it. And five years ago, oh my God, just the idea of that would've been like, “Are you crazy?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3809.0,3883.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhere does that issue stand now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3883.0,3885.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSo Roper Hospital has stepped to the plate and is funding a mobile clinic. And MUSC is still... We have heard that some of our state reps are working with their lobbyists to get them to put it into their budget for funding, but we have not gotten confirmation that's actually happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3885.0,3908.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHow do you feel about the fact that - and I said “wrap-up”, but we are going to get to the wrap-up eventually - how do you feel about this idea that some changes may come about, but CAJM's not going to be credited with having brought them about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3908.0,3923.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, I mean I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes I'm like, “Who cares? CAJM doesn't have to get the credit.” But then I look at the community members that are spending all of their time in this work - and unpaid work. Like, we have five full-time organizers, but we have 120 team leaders that devote significant time to this work. We have 40-plus clergy that are devoting significant time. So sometimes, when - and when CAJM isn't accredited it's the community not being credited, and there's a real danger in that, because you've got public officials who are always changing narratives about what happened, how it came about, and that history lives on, you know? And-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3923.0,3969.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\n...and what they did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3969.0,3971.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nYeah, exactly. And so even though I'm like, “We just want to see the end result happen,” there is definitely many of us at times who are like the credit needs to go where the credit’s due, which is to the community. Because this is a lesson that is being taught to the generations after us that this work was done by people just like you, and you're capable of doing it too. And so, I'm always kind of walking the tightrope on that one a little bit, on who should get the credit, do we demand credit, and that kind of stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=3971.0,4012.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWell, you've just beautifully wrapped up what the purpose of Documenting the Arc is, so that there is this tangible record, so that if people think that stuff just happened out of nowhere we can say to them, “Listen to what Treva has to tell you about it.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4012.0,4029.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nPolice audit wasn't just a great idea that Mayor Tecklenburg had, it was community members demanding it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4029.0,4039.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThank you so much. TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4039.0,4040.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4040.0,4040.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nSure. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWe appreciate all your insights, and your work, for sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4040.0,4044.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965/transcript/87844/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TREVA WILLIAMS\n\nThank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164248/file/298965#t=4044.0,4046.0"}]}]}]}