{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/8c9r20sw02/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Wolfgang Ischinger, December 16, 2022"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2022-12-16 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Whalen, Emily"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Ischinger, Wolfgang"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eWolfgang Ischinger talks about his decades-long relationship with the EastWest Institute, from meeting John Mroz at Tufts University during their graduate work, to attending EWI conferences with Hans-Dietrich Genscher, to his later work after German reunification with the Munich Security Conference. Ischinger relates many anecdotes from his life as a prominent West German diplomat during the late Cold War and offers insights into the importance of creative ideas in geopolitics. \u003c/p\u003e (abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["College of Charleston Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["Genscher, Hans-Dietrich","Gorbachev, Mikhail","Kohl, Helmut","Mroz, John Edwin","Süssmuth, Rita"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Cold War","Diplomacy","European Union","Geopolitics","German reunification question (1949-1990)","Internationalism","Leadership","Track two diplomacy","Yugoslav War, 1991-1995"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Europe, Central","Europe, Eastern","Germany","Germany (East)","Germany (West)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type IMT"]},"value":{"en":["video/mp4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright © College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2023-01-27"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eWolfgang Ischinger talks about his decades-long relationship with the EastWest Institute, from meeting John Mroz at Tufts University during their graduate work, to attending EWI conferences with Hans-Dietrich Genscher, to his later work after German reunification with the Munich Security Conference. Ischinger relates many anecdotes from his life as a prominent West German diplomat during the late Cold War and offers insights into the importance of creative ideas in geopolitics.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright \u0026copy; College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/174/060/small/Ischinger_Wolfgang_Dec2022.mp4_1674674688.jpg?1674674690","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Ischinger_Wolfgang_Dec2022.mp4"]},"duration":2346.549,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/174/060/small/Ischinger_Wolfgang_Dec2022.mp4_1674674688.jpg?1674674690","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/174/060/original/Ischinger_Wolfgang_Dec2022.mp4?1674674685","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":2346.549,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Interview with Wolfgang Ischinger, December 16, 2022 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nIf you could, give me your name, your position, and your role at the EastWest Institute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=0.0,9.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nOkay. My name is Wolfgang Ischinger. I am a retired German career diplomat. I took over 15 years ago, in 2008, the chairmanship of the Munich Security Conference, which I've continued to organize until earlier this year. Now, currently, I've handed over the operational responsibility of this organization to a successor, but I continue to be responsible for the strategy of the Munich Security Conference in my current capacity as president of the foundation, which owns the Munich Security Conference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=9.0,65.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, my relationship with the EastWest Institute, of course, goes back many, many years. It has to do with the fact that in the 1980s and early '90s, one of my eminent former bosses, former German foreign minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, played a role in the EastWest Institute. Of course, I happened to be a classmate of the founder of the EastWest Institute, which has been the basis for a personal relationship for the last, I'd say, five decades. That's it, essentially.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=65.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWonderful. You mentioned that you and John Mroz were classmates. Why don't you tell me a little bit about how you met and what it was like to be friends with him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=122.0,135.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nAll right. In 1972, I had just graduated from law school in Germany, and I was interested in continuing my academic career with a grant from a German research agency, which allowed me to go to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I lived for a year. I became a graduate student at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, and I also did some graduate, or I should say postgraduate work at Harvard Law School. At Fletcher, I ran into a certain Mr. Mroz. And the interesting thing about him, of course, was that he was special. Even then in his early 20s as a graduate student, he had so much energy, and it was pretty clear that he was going to try to do something extraordinary once he was going to be out of school and entering professional life. That was clear to everyone. We became friends.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=135.0,222.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He was interested in Europe, and sure enough, you know the details much better than I would now, thinking back to those years, it took him no time to identify, to find people who were willing to help him establish, fund the initial activities of what then became the EastWest Institute with its outreach to the former Soviet Union, to other Eastern European, former Warsaw Pact countries like Czechoslovakia, like Poland, et cetera. Of course, some of this had to do with John Mroz's own personal history. As I recall, his family background was in Eastern Europe, so he had a personal affinity to this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=222.0,290.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would add that it was, in those days, especially for my own country, for Germany, having been divided after World War II, living with the Wall right down the middle of our former capital city, Berlin, with all the tensions associated with the Cold War of the 1970s and '80s, it was such a relief for many of us, including myself, to try to support an initiative coming from the United States that was trying to build bridges and establish people-to-people relationships, but also political relationships at the level of the decision makers between East and West. And that is why I thought the name was so appropriate, the EastWest Institute. They couldn't have chosen a better name for it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=290.0,363.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think we owe John Mroz a huge debt of gratitude for being a pioneer in helping to pave the way for what then emerged after German Unification, after the breakdown of the former Soviet Union, what emerged as a more normal \"partnership\", relationship with countries of Eastern Europe, including the former Soviet Union. It is, of course, sad today, at the end of 2022, to see how most of the work are done, most of the efforts undertaken by individuals like John Mroz and others, most of that work has now been shattered by the recent war of aggression, which by Russia against its own neighbor, Ukraine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=363.0,432.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I think the legacy of the EastWest is the legacy of what we used to call détente, of relaxation of tensions, of building bridges, of trust-building. That legacy will continue to exist. And I'm sure at some point in the future, we will be able to start building on it again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=432.0,458.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nI hope so. Yeah. To go back a little, after you had finished at Fletcher and at Harvard Law, did you go straight back to Germany and join the diplomatic service?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=458.0,471.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nWell, no. Through some strange coincidences, right after my academic time at Fletcher and at Harvard Law School, I ended up as a junior official with the Secretariat of the United Nations. I lived in New York for a few years and worked in New York with the UN. And then in 1975, I transferred back to Germany because I had decided to go for a diplomatic career with the German Diplomatic Service, and that attempt turned out to be successful. So I went home to what was then our capital, Bonn, and started this diplomatic career, which allowed me to go back to the United States after a relatively short period of time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=471.0,534.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In 1979, I was back this time in Washington, DC, as a junior official with the German Embassy for another three or three-and-a-half years of diplomatic service. It was, of course, during those years, late '70s, early '80s, that the EastWest Institute began its operations, and that was the period in which I got interested in it. As I said, there were senior German politicians who played a role in the board, like Hans-Dietrich Genscher, and like the first female president of our parliament, the German Bundestag, who also was a member of the board of the EastWest Institute for quite a while.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=534.0,596.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYes. To talk a little bit about the Cold War tensions, as you mentioned, the early 1980s, the Cold War was changing and intensifying. I wonder if you could tell us a little about what the feeling was like in Germany and what it felt like to be a German diplomat in this period of division and intensifying Cold War tensions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=596.0,629.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nIt's important to remember that in the late '70s, early '80s, EastWest tensions increased considerably because of the conflict between, on the one hand, the Soviet Union and NATO, and the United States on the other hand, over the Soviet decision to deploy new medium-range nuclear weapons, ballistic nuclear missiles, which became publicly known under the name of SS-20. And the question arose in 1978, '79, '80, what kind of reaction should NATO present or develop to this new threat, which we identified as an attempt by the Soviet Union to drive a wedge between the United States on the one hand and her European allies on the other hand?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=629.0,705.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In order to prevent that wedge from becoming a successful instrument of Soviet domination of the European theater, the plan was developed to deploy US nuclear weapons, both cruise missiles and the ballistic missile known under the name of Pershing II in Germany and a few other European countries. That was the problem which dominated largely the EastWest political debate throughout the first half or even beyond the first half of the 1980s. In 1983, for example, we had more than 300,000 anti-war, anti-nuclear weapons demonstrators demonstrating in Bonn.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=705.0,769.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In other words, these were difficult times, times full of tension, both within the alliance, but also in trying to work with our Eastern neighbors. For Germany, it was a particularly important challenge because the Soviet Union, having identified Germany as one of the countries that would actually be one of the deployment countries of these new American weapons, the Soviet Union tried to really isolate Germany and prevent Germany from having meaningful political contacts with the countries of Central and Eastern Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=769.0,820.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In my own position at that time in the 1980s as an assistant, a special assistant to the German foreign minister, in this case, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, we made a continuing effort to break through this barrier created by the Soviets at the time. Genscher tirelessly traveled to Prague to meet with the leadership of Czechoslovakia, which existed then, not yet broken up into two constituent parts, to Romania, to Hungary, to Poland, of course, et cetera, in order to continue something that would deserve to be called a dialogue, a dialogue between Germany and other Western allies with our Eastern neighbors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=820.0,881.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And of course, also with the Soviet Union. Talking with the Soviet Union was really very difficult in those years, and this is why it is. These circumstances, these political circumstances which made the kind of, let me call it the Track-Two effort, developed by John Mroz and others, so vitally important because we were really hampered in our official diplomatic activities because we were sometimes not invited. People whom we tried to invite to come and meet with us in Bonn would not show up. And that is why the EastWest Institute became an important tool of breaking through this, not sound barrier, but this political barrier that had been created.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=881.0,943.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think that the EastWest Institute really turned out to be an essential instrument of maintaining dialogue and establishing relationships based on personal trust building. Of course, in our view, the German view, was one of the central tenants of our policy. The country that had started World War II, namely us, Germany, was trying to develop policies which would allow our former enemies, our former adversaries, to trust us and to regard our existence not as a threat, but as an asset to their own stability and to peace in Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=943.0,1003.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think the EastWest Institute helped considerably in continuing this effort, which had of course, been started long before the 1980s. But as the Cold War begun to come to an end, we didn't really foresee that it would come to an end in 1990, 1991. But the EastWest Institute played a really crucial role in this decade of the 1980s, and of course, beyond.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1003.0,1040.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nIt was in the mid 1980s that the EastWest Institute held a conference, one of their annual conferences in Potsdam.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1040.0,1047.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nYes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1047.0,1048.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nDid you attend this conference?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1048.0,1050.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nYou ask an interesting question. I have no direct personal recollection of that particular meeting. I probably did. I probably did. But in those years, in the mid '80s, I was extraordinarily busy. I worked seven days a week, tirelessly traveling most of the time with the minister, so I don't really recall that particular event. I know it happened, but I could not tell you how and for how long and with whom I attended that particular conference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1050.0,1096.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nThat's all right. I asked because I know that Hans-Dietrich Genscher attended the meeting, so I assumed you probably did, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1096.0,1103.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nI was probably carrying his case for all I know, but I really don't remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1103.0,1112.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with Genscher? I was sad we didn't get a chance to collect his memories of the Institute for this archive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1112.0,1124.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nWell, the thing about Hans-Dietrich Genscher was that of course, he did not have a fanciful background in foreign policy. He was well-versed in domestic German politics. He had been what in America you would call something like the Attorney General, Innenminister, responsible for domestic security, et cetera. Remember, in 1972, we had the Olympics in Munich, and that was when the Israeli team was taken hostage by Palestinian terrorists. And Genscher was the security minister responsible for domestic security. That was one of the biggest crisis moments in his political life. Again, mostly focused on domestic issues.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1124.0,1189.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He became foreign minister then a few years later in the mid '70s, and my first encounter with him came after I had entered the German Foreign Service. I was asked to be an analyst in our Policy Planning Department, charged with long-term strategic planning of German foreign policy. I worked there from 1977 to 1979, for almost three years. And it was in that capacity that I first met the foreign minister for discussions about, how can Germany play a meaningful role in this security situation that had emerged that we've just been discussing about, the Pershing IIs and the SS 20s, and the confrontational atmosphere that had been brought about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1189.0,1265.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I got to know him through these discussions in the late '70s. And then of course, after my three years in Washington, I ended up being one of his special assistants. I worked with him for the next eight years without interruption, from '82 practically to 1990, to the time of Unification. The one thing one needs to know about Hans-Dietrich Genscher is that he had a kind of a perfect memory. He was able to recall from memory the exact language that he had used in his speech, say 20 years ago. That made him hard to beat in a discussion because he knew exactly what he had said, and he also knew what others had said. His memory was very, very hard to beat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1265.0,1330.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He was an extremely demanding and ambitious politician. He would not take an excuse like, \"But today is Sunday. This is my day off.\" He would not hesitate to call people like myself or my colleagues at 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning and say, \"In one hour, you're going to be at my house with the following documents, and we'll spend the next six hours drafting a piece of paper,\" et cetera. It was hard work. But it was also for me, the period during which I learned practically everything that I needed to know, needed to know how to do for my later more senior positions as an ambassador, as a state secretary, running the foreign ministry, et cetera, et cetera.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1330.0,1388.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It was for me, a hugely important learning period, sitting as a note taker with him when he had meetings with the Soviet Foreign Minister or with Paul Nitze, who was the US negotiator regarding the SS-20 Pershing issue, et cetera, et cetera. I learned literally everything I know in this profession from Hans-Dietrich Genscher, and I owe him a huge debt of gratitude. I could not have fulfilled my later positions as political director, chief negotiator at Dayton, on Bosnia, on NATO-Russia issues, and on so many other issues. I could not possibly have done that successfully without the six or eight years that I spent working with him directly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1388.0,1450.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWonderful. Well, let's move a little forward in time to the period of Unification. What was it like when, for you, working in the German government when the Wall came down and when the process of the Cold War ending began?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1450.0,1472.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nWell, I think the interesting point to make is that when the Wall came down in early November of 1989, the word or the concept of reunification continued to be a purely theoretical concept. No one assumed that this vision was going to be materializing itself within days or weeks or months. We thought of it as a long-term vision. In other words, we were very ill-prepared for this. And when the Wall came down, in the days the Wall came down, I was actually in Moscow, and Minister Genscher had asked me to accompany the president of our parliament, Mrs. Süssmuth, who served on the EastWest Institute Board at a later point, to accompany her to Moscow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1472.0,1547.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Four days or so after the Wall had come down, we were sitting in the Kremlin across Mikhail Gorbachev and Mrs. Süssmuth asked President Gorbachev, \"So Mr. President, what do you think about all the East Germans who are now taking their little East German cars, the Trabis, to go and explore West Germany by the thousands?\" There were endless lines of automobiles on the German Autobahn from East to West in those days. And Gorbachev came up with a really interesting answer. Again, I repeat, this was five days after the Wall had come down.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1547.0,1595.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He said, \"I'm not surprised at all. This is like if you take the lid off a pressure cooker, of course, things will want to come out. The East Germans have been prevented from seeing their friends and relatives, et cetera, in West Germany. So now, obviously, they want to go over and check things out. But Madam President, I can promise you in two or three weeks, everything will be back to normal.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1595.0,1626.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nOh my gosh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1626.0,1626.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\n\"Everything will be back to normal.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1626.0,1628.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nOh my gosh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1628.0,1630.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nI will never forget this one hour with Gorbachev. Because in my almost 50 years in the diplomatic world, I don't think I ever witnessed as majestic an error as the one that happened in this conversation. That Gorbachev, obviously, and his advisors, did not understand then and failed to understand for quite some time that with that Wall coming down, an entire era was about to end. And that it would affect the existence, the very existence of the Soviet Union, which would start crumbling within a year or so. In other words, what a huge failure to understand the dimension, the political and strategic dimension of what was actually happening.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1630.0,1699.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I remember that next day, when we were back in Bonn, Genscher and Chancellor Kohl were extremely interested in hearing a firsthand report, which I was able to deliver about how Gorbachev was reacting, what kinds of things he was saying, and also what he was not saying to Mrs. Süssmuth at the time. We were not well-prepared, but we undertook, of course, when it became clear that the Soviet Union was not going to send the tanks, but was going to accept reality as it is, we were then going into overdrive and pursuing the entire German government, the foreign ministry for the external issues, the domestic ministries for all the economic and social and other dossiers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1699.0,1769.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We pursued a full court press, as you would say in sports, in order to create the conditions for bringing these two separated parts of the country together again after several decades of ideological and systemic division, a huge undertaking for which there was no blueprint. We had to work from scratch. And it was a tremendously interesting effort that I was involved in to some extent as a relatively young government official at the time. And finally, what I would also like to mention in response to your question is, it took a while and it took a little bit of courage for German politicians at the end of 1989, beginning of 1990, to actually use the word, redefining of the word reunification, the word Unification.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1769.0,1847.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We kept debating the question, if we use that word, do we not risk alienating, especially the Soviets? Will they not then clamp down and refuse to accept the changes that were about to happen? In other words, there was great uncertainty about the right way to proceed. But finally, I guess in the early days of 1990, we had a kind of breakthrough after discussions between Chancellor Kohl and President Bush and President Gorbachev. And finally, we did start talking openly and publicly about Wiedervereinigung, about the concept of actually creating one country again out of these two. And remember, not all our friends were happy about this idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1847.0,1908.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There was quite a bit of hesitation in London, but also in the Élysée Palace in Paris with Mitterrand and Maggie Thatcher. They were not sure this was such a great idea. The ones who supported us a 100% in the pursuit of this project was the Bush 41 Administration, with Bob Kimmitt and Bob Zoellick, two key advisors to Jim Baker, who played a central role in organizing and conceptualizing the famous Two Plus Four Negotiations. Which were then started in early 1990 and were successfully concluded in the fall of 1990, just in time for the celebration of Unification on the 3rd of October.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1908.0,1962.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nIt's incredible. We could probably talk for three or four more hours about this, but I'll keep us on task. This was, as you mentioned, a moment of massive transition, also for the EastWest Institute, which had devoted itself to crossing this divide that all of a sudden was disappearing. How did you perceive the role of the Institute during this transition? And did it change?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1962.0,1989.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nWell, I think the Institute ceased the opportunity, ceased the moment extremely well. John understood that this was going to open up entirely new perspectives. It didn't take long, of course, after Unification for Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia to speak publicly about joining Western institutions, about joining NATO, wishing to join NATO. What about the relationship between these countries and the European Union? For the EastWest Institute, this provided an opportunity to broaden the scope of activities and to reach out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=1989.0,2040.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"All of a sudden, many of the difficulties, visa difficulties, conference facilitation issues that had made the work for John Mroz and others not so easy in the 1980s, all of a sudden, these difficulties began to disappear. And wow, what a joy. Again, I can only say that I think the EastWest Institute, which then of course established ... What's the word for it? Established offices, presence in places like Prague, supported by Václav Havel, then President of Czechoslovakia and others. A great time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2040.0,2105.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I forget, actually, you could probably look this up, I forget at which time I joined the Board of the EastWest Institute. But I certainly joined the board knowing that after the work done earlier by more important people and myself, like Hans-Dietrich Genscher and Mrs. Süssmuth, that it was going to be really important that a German voice was going to be on that board to make sure that our views would be taken into account as the Institute started this more comprehensive outreach. Look, I have five more minutes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2105.0,2155.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYes. Yeah. I have so many more questions to ask, but I will put them aside. I wanted to ask just a bigger-picture question. What do you think was the value added of the EastWest Institute? And what do you remember most vividly about the role that it played in the world in this period?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2155.0,2181.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nIt's really quite easy to say. Ideas, ideas, ideas. The activities, let me call it these Track-Two activities, conducted meetings, conferences, smaller meetings, larger meetings, offered a huge number of new ideas about what exactly we might do, what we might try to avoid doing in order to not provoke any blocking activities by certain governments, et cetera. I think my response to your question would be, for me, the EastWest Institute was a hugely important provider of new and untested ideas, which I thought maybe we can put that into our official government-to-government program and check it out, and talk about it with the French and with the Americans and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2181.0,2259.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The EastWest Institute became my own little think tank operation, and I benefited enormously from all of this, especially during the period in which I then served personally as director of policy planning. Remember, I had been in the Policy Planning Department in the late '70s. In the early '90s, right after Unification, beginning in '93, all of a sudden I was promoted to being the director of policy planning. And everybody expected from me to come up with crazy new ideas and wonderful proposals and visions, et cetera. I think the EastWest Institute's work, and John Mroz's enthusiasm, continuing enthusiasm about these opportunities, helped me enormously in meeting the challenges of the 1990s and beyond.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2259.0,2336.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWonderful. Great place to end. Thank you so much, ambassador, for your time and for your recollections. This was a really special conversation. I hope you have a happy holiday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2336.0,2344.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060/transcript/41548/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WOLFGANG ISCHINGER\n\nThank you. Same to you. Same to you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/85858/file/174060#t=2344.0,2346.549"}]}]}]}