{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/9p2w37ns39/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Oral history interview with Damon Fordham"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2/4/22"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Damon Fordham is an author, historical interpreter and adjunct professor of history at the Citadel Military College. In addition to his academic work, Fordham has been involved in local activism for several years, including mentoring the founders of Black Lives Matter Charleston."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture"]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Note"]},"value":{"en":["For more information contact the Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture, 125 Bull Street, Charleston, SC 29424."]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Statement"]},"value":{"en":["All rights reserved."]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Fordham, Damon"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Brown, Millicent E., 1948-"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Black lives matter movement","African Americans","Activism","Political participation","Community organization"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["dÕBaha, Muhiyidin, 1985-2018","Moye, Muhiyidin, 1985-2018","Scott, Walter, 1965-2015","Slager, Michael, 1981-","Santana, Feidin,1991-","Emanuel AME Church (Charleston, S.C.)","Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina","University of South Carolina"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston (S.C.)","North Charleston (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic County"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston County (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}},{"label":{"en":["Resource Locator"]},"value":{"en":["AMN 1168.001.010"]}},{"label":{"en":["Digitization Specifications"]},"value":{"en":["Mp4 derivative audio and video created using Davinci Resolve. Archival masters are mp4 files."]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2022"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Damon Fordham is an author, historical interpreter and adjunct professor of history at the Citadel Military College. In addition to his academic work, Fordham has been involved in local activism for several years, including mentoring the founders of Black Lives Matter Charleston."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/291/377/small/damon-fordom.mp4_1757956331.jpg?1757956333","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - damon-fordom.mp4"]},"duration":3405.631,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/291/377/small/damon-fordom.mp4_1757956331.jpg?1757956333","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/291/377/original/damon-fordom.mp4?1757956325","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":3405.631,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Interview with Damon Fordham [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nFor the record, we're going to ask you to first state your full name.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=0.0,6.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nMy name is Damon Lamar Fordham. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6.0,8.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Would you tell us where you're from? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=8.0,14.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nI was born in Spartanburg, South Carolina, December 23rd, 1964, put up for adoption, raised by Pearl and Abraham Fordham in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, and found my family when I was 35. And so, I maintained basically, I consider myself both a Charlestonian as well as a native of Spartanburg, because I've sort of really gotten to the story behind that side of my family also, as well as the one I have here. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=14.0,45.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Okay. And how do you describe yourself professionally? Do you have a title that you use- [crosstalk","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=45.0,53.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"] ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=53.0,3652.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nYes, I'm a professor, Damon L. Fordham, MA, and an adjunct professor of history at The Citadel, but I also consider myself a public historian, which means that I believe in taking a lot of this information to the general public in a manner of which is digestible. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3652.0,3670.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nFor which we really appreciate your efforts, for sure. We know that you have done a good bit of writing about the history that you've discovered here in, especially in the Charleston area. Do you want to go ahead and put in a plug now for your book? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3670.0,3692.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nWell, I've written four books, three of which have been published, one is on the way. The first two books were True Stories of Black South Carolina, and Voices of Black South Carolina. They are a compilation of articles I've written over the years regarding local and state African American History, the lesser-known things that most people don't know about because I'm sort of a library rat and love digging in archives. There was a novel called, Mr. Potts and Me, that is loosely based on my childhood and the folklore I grew up around, from the elders, which got me into history in the first place. \n\nAnd then there is one that's on the way that I just signed the contract for this morning. The title was originally Call Us Aliens, but they're probably going to change it. It's about the six Black heroic men, including the great Robert Smalls, WJ Whipper, and Thomas Miller, the founder of South Carolina state, among others. The six of them went to Columbia in 1895 to stand up against Ben Tillman's efforts to put segregation laws in the state legislature. And it's one of the... basically, it's my favorite story in American history. So, that book is coming out between August and October. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3692.0,3770.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nCongratulations.  DAMON FORDHAM\n\nThank you. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3770.0,3771.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nThank you. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3771.0,3771.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nThank you.  MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. You know that for the purposes of this project, the Avery Research Center has decided that, or made a decision that, there is too much of a history of lost voices. And we know that you're sensitive to that, and for our purposes today, we are talking about a community going through a lot of challenges and a lot of changes, but within a relatively short period of time. And we'd like to ask you to, first of all, give your thoughts on why a project like this might be necessary. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3771.0,3831.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nIt's absolutely necessary because you see for too long, a lot of our voices, particularly in the Black Community have either been lost or have been unheard. And we especially see that in research. For example, say if you want to do research on Charleston history in general, or put it bluntly white Charleston History or white South Carolina History, the archives of the Columbia State Newspaper, or the Greenville News, or the Spartanburg Herald-Journal, or the Charleston News and Courier, or Post and Courier, they're intact from the 1800's, so anybody could easily find out information about that. But that the accent on most African Americans has been one of survival as opposed to preservation. For example, then here in Charleston, there was a Black newspaper called the Charleston Messenger that ran from 1895 to 1946, but only five copies of that paper are known to exist today. \n\nAnd oftentimes I asked one of my aunts in Spartanburg about our enslaved ancestors and her words to me were, \"Those old folks didn't talk about that stuff.\" And so, so much information has been lost, forever lost to the graveyards within the Black Community, and then of course, too, you had to deal with the fact that many people were too intimidated in prior years to speak openly about their experiences and their issues, and you combine this with the enforced illiteracy during slavery and the deliberate under-education of a people, for lack of a better word, in the post-reconstruction era, to ensure that we remained a permanent class of cheap labor, we had this oral culture. But a lot of that died out by people not saying things around young children or the young children not being interested. And a lot of that history, again, being relegated to the graveyard. So, there's so much out there that is lost that it's important to get what we can now. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3831.0,3961.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTell us how much of a problem that has posed for you with the research and writing that you've been engaged in, depending so much on oral history. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3961.0,3974.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nWell, first of all, when you're Black, you naturally come across what Mr. James Campbell, for those of you who don't know who he is, he was this legendary local scholar who died last year at the age of 95. He told me that too often, we live in, we Black people that is, live in this culture of mistrust and despair based on the harrowing experiences of our past. So, oftentimes if I go into a community and I interview people, older, Black people, for a project, if they don't know me, they're not going to talk to me because they don't know whether I'm some sort of agent or whatever, I guess they think that I'm probably going to go to some source and twist their words out of context or whatever, but in communities where I'm well known, they have this trust for me to tell me various things, because they know that I understand various cultural contexts of where they're coming from. \n\nTo give you a brief example of that. Say, I'm talking to an older person I'm 57 years old now, but I'm still young to somebody in their seventies. I know African American culture enough to know that if I'm speaking to somebody old enough to be my parent, I'd better, as the young people say, put some respect on their name and preface that with a mister or miss or whatever title that they have, and a lot of people who don't have that cultural connection don't understand that. So, they wind up unintentionally offending these people without knowing their culture. So, it's important that I make inroads within a community before I speak to elders, so they'll know who I am, they'll know my work, they know my intentions because, on those occasions where I have come into communities where I'm fairly well known and trusted by a lot of the community, I've had no problems with that. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=3974.0,4091.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAside from being respectful, tell us more about the process of building trust. And we can talk specifically about Charleston since you've [crosstalk","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4091.0,4103.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"] spent so much of your time- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4103.0,4105.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nDefinitely. Well, I could talk about both Charleston, Columbia, and Spartanburg, because I went to the University of South Carolina, and I built up some roots there before returning here in the '90s when my mother took a turn for the worse. But in Charleston particularly, you have to be aware of a lot of cultural things going on too. Now to give you an example of this, when you know as well as I do that, there's this whole impression of the Avery Institute being about the color caste thing. And when I first started working here, Dr. Dulaney was upstairs, Dr. Marvin Dulaney, who was the director of this place in the '90s, he was upstairs with a bunch of what we referred to around here as the old Averyites, i.e., the people who went here when it was a secondary school back in the '30s and '40s at that point, many of them were still alive, right? \n\nSo, anyway, I went upstairs to talk to him about something, and there was a room with, he was in the room with the Fieldings and the DeCostas and some of Charleston's old, Black Bourgeoisie crowd was in the room, right? So, I walked in and accidentally interrupted their meeting, and so I said, \"Oh, excuse me. I didn't know y'all were having this meeting.\" So, J. Michael Graves, who was one of that crowd saw me and said, \"Excuse me, young man, do I know you?\" And I, \"You knew my parents.\" And he goes, \"How so?\" And I said, \"My parents were Pearl Maxwell and Abraham Fordham, who you taught at Laing High back in the 40's,\"o and he goes, \"Oh, is that so?\" And once that ice was broken, I had very few to little problems with that crowd after that. \n\nNow I say all that to say this, Charleston is a very cliquish and clannish city, and it's not always, and people all tend to simplify that by saying it was about color caste, well, not all the time. That incident goes to show that it's also about class and who you know, where people become comfortable with you and accept you within circles because these circles tend to be very clannish and closed to outsiders. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4105.0,4249.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo, if we're talking about building trust, you sound like someone who values getting to know people in a community. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4249.0,4265.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nOh, you have to, because each community has their particular differences. And again, because in the more extreme days of our oppression, as a people, we had to be close-knit, we had to be cliquish, and be wary of outsiders, because there was always the element that would -- You know the old saying run tell that? I.e., for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, we always had to be wary of possible informants on one end to say if you wanted to do something that was against the system and so forth, you had to worry about people ingratiating themselves with you, and then going back to the authorities and really getting you messed up. So, things like that... And so, those types of defense mechanisms go through generations. \n\nAnd then within Charleston, you always also had an additional issue with the dialect and the accents here, i.e., Gullah, in this case. For years, you had people who came here to \"study it,\" but wound up basically ridiculing these individuals or treating them as if they're some sort of laboratory specimens and patronizing them. So, that's another reason why they're so unwilling to talk on many cases. \n\nI know in 2013, I lectured at the University of Berkeley out in California. You know, over by the San Francisco Bay? And I was greatly annoyed by the misconceptions that these people had about the culture around here. They tended to see us as these exotic primitives, and I greatly resented that and told them so. So, it's for these types of reasons that you see this sort of hesitancy to converse with outsiders. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4265.0,4387.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI think that's a good overview, especially of some of the elders, if you will, in the community. Let's talk about your relationship with people that are more your peers, or even younger. Do those same attitudes hold true? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4387.0,4408.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nNow that's a different kettle of fish altogether because I think that I am... Okay, I was born in 1964. I grew up in the late '60s through the '70s and reached young adulthood in the '80s, and that was the period of the cohesive community. That was when you thought of your... you identified in terms of your neighborhood or your community and so forth. That was when Ms. Martha Jenkins, who lived across from us, was the den mother of the neighborhood. If she saw us acting up, she would take care of us in the street, and then tell our parents afterward. You know that whole idea of, we see ourselves as this cohesive community. \n\nBy the time I was away in college in the '80s at the University of South Carolina, that was pretty much beginning to die out, by that point. You had a situation whereas... Because in my youth, for example, I was put up for adoption because my biological mother had me from a married man. That was a common thing in those days. And so, I grew up in a community where the vast majority of my peers, if they didn't have a father at home, there was a grandfather or an uncle. Or even if that wasn't the case, I specifically remember sitting on a porch with my friends and laughing at some drunks. We were 10 years old. And the father of one of my friends grabbed me by the shoulder and I'm like, \"Oh!\" And he said, \"Fordham, don't you ever laugh at that! There is nothing funny about that. That man is destroying his home and his family,\" and so on and so forth. And so, you had that situation where these men in the community, they looked out for, disciplined us, and taught us a correction. Now, granted, they didn't always have to be physical about it, but you see my point, we understood these shared values. \n\nAnd I think I saw that kind of thing erode with future generations from the '80s on, for a variety of social shifts. One of them, of course, the drug epidemic that happened on a horrific scale in the mid to late '80s for one thing, and a lot of the whole changing of social mores and such. And I'm not saying whether all these changes in social mores were good or bad, but they were changes. And so, you had a less of a situation where young people had this shared community of values to where a lot of things were going all over the place. \n\nSo, I keep that in mind when I talk to young people today, that they don't have the same background that I did. And oftentimes I'm cognizant to the fact that I have to listen as well as talk to them. Because one thing I've come to understand is that every time you converse with another person, you learn something. And I always approach my students with the fact that they can teach me as much as I can teach them. So, I think in years of speaking with and mentoring and teaching and learning with the youth, I'm able to communicate with them, because I recognize the difference between how they were raised and how I was raised. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4408.0,4620.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWell, I think you've done a pretty good job, evidently, because I know when your name was suggested as someone whose voice was very much needed for inclusion, the whole idea about being able to relate to young people was mentioned. And for the purposes of this project, we are looking at Charleston, the Charleston area, especially starting with the tragedy with Walter Scott. And we are taking a look at that horrendous event all the way to the George Floyd worldwide phenomenon, the kind of activism that actually occurred right here in the Charleston area. So, would you just share with us first, maybe your reaction to the Walter Scott tragedy, and just talk to us a little bit about what that meant to you as a— an historian, but you're still young and engaged in the community. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4620.0,4701.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nAll right. Let me backtrack that a little bit. I will take that back to Trayvon Martin, I'll tell you why. Because there was a march held here in 2014, right before Walter Scott. I think that was around the time of the verdict of the Trayvon Martin case. And for the historical record for people watching this years from now, Trayvon Martin was the young Black man in Sanford, Florida who was killed by a vigilante. And many people thought that the vigilante would be locked up, but he got off free for killing this young man. And so, that led to, I would call, the more recent wave of activism that we see going on right now. That was the catalyst for that, I think, as say Emmett Till was with the 1950's generation. \n\nNow having said all of that. So, around 2014, I became friendly with Pastor Thomas Dixon, who was a local activist. And about three weeks after we met, my mother passed and this man didn't barely know me from Adam's house cat, yet he was ministering to me over that, and I greatly appreciated it. And plus, I liked his style of activism because he didn't seem to me to be an exploiter of things. And I know a lot of people over the years who I considered to be exploiters of situations versus people who were sincerely about making things better. And, he struck me as somebody who was sincerely about making things better, right? \n\nSo, in 2014, I was involved with this March against what happened to Trayvon Martin. And that's when I met this slew of younger activists. And at the end, for example, at one point we were having a rally at Marion Square, and somebody gave me a megaphone and asked me to speak. And ordinarily, I don't like that because I like to prepare before I speak, I don't like to just get off and ramble or anything like that. I want to know what I'm saying to people before I open my mouth, but I just spoke from the heart that day. And incidentally, film of that can be found on my YouTube channel. \n\nThere's this tall guy with locs and a white jumpsuit standing next to me that I don't know from Adam's house cat, right? So, after the march is over the guy with the locs comes up to me, \"Excuse me, Professor Fordham.\" And I said, \"Yes?\" And he said, \"I'm Muhiyidin d'Baha.\" And I said, \"Oh, after 'Abdu'l Baha?” And he goes, “Oh! You know of 'Abdu'l Baha?\" And I said, \"Well, I've read his teachings. I'm not a follower of his, I'm not with the Baha'i Faith, but I've read his teachings, and I like what I read, but yeah, what can I do for you?\" He goes, \"Well, I've seen you on television. I'd like to come build with you sometimes.\" And for those who aren't familiar with the youth vernacular, to build with somebody means to reason and intelligently exchange ideas. And I said, \"Yeah, sure, here's my number.\" \n\nAnd I got to know him pretty well after that as -- And it's interesting because, of course, since he is dead, people tend to deify people after they're dead. But anybody who knows Muhiyidin— who knew Muhiyidin prior to all of that, a lot of people dismissed him as this oddball, as some sort of nut or something, when he was really just a sincere young man who was in search of finding ways to do things better. \n\nSo, I got to know him well. And one of the things that I would impart to him was I would tell him about my cousin's involvement with SNCC, and Stokely Carmichael, and my sister knowing Huey Newton and the Black Panther movement, and all of that. And I would encourage them not to just study the glory days of those people, but to study their errors, so that those errors that helped destroy them, along with the outside forces, that you don't go down that same path again. In other words, build on their strengths to avoid their weaknesses. So, that's how I got to know him. \n\nNow, Walter Scott. So, at a rally. Okay— as a matter of fact, you were there. In April 4, 2015, we were at some program over at the College of Charleston. And, I remember you spoke at that occasion, and I remember Muhiyidin got up and said, \"Well, y'all had Medgar Evers, and Dr. King, and Malcolm X, who does my generation have?\" And I looked at him directly and said, \"You,\" and it was roughly about 10 minutes after that, that Pastor Dixon got the call about Walter Scott. And the two of them got involved with the case, that is Pastor Dixon and Muhiyidin, and the young man from the Dominican Republic, Feidin Santana, gave Muhiyidin the film of the shooting of Walter Scott. \n\nWalter Scott, for the historical record, the young Black man who was about my age, he was shot eight times in the back by the police, from running away after he was stopped by the police. And so, they were— so they did the usual type of cover-up after he was shot, and then Muhiyidin and Feidin put the tape out, and that led to the movement that led to the conviction of officer Slager, in that case. But one thing I want to go on record on talking about that I don't think gets discussed enough in that case, is that, and I felt that keenly because I used to date one of Walter Scott's cousins, and she and I... She's married now and she and I are still pretty good friends today. So, I saw the pain that caused her. \n\nAnd in fact, I saw a very rude, local lawyer go toe to toe on Facebook, he was making all these slanderous accusations. As a matter of fact, it was unprofessional because he was defending... I'll just flat out tell you it was Andy Savage, and he was defending, I think Officer Slager, if I recall correctly, and Walter's cousin who I was dating at one point, he got into it with her on Facebook. And I mean that was, that should have been almost grounds to get him off the case, really. That's just how bad things got. \n\nBut getting back to Feidin Santana. When he was testifying in court, the solicitor Scarlett Wilson, had the audacity to ask him, \"What race are you?\" …Okay, now Feidin is from the Dominican Republic, and most people who aren't American don't understand that other countries have different standards of racial classification, but he made me so proud when he got up and said, \"I am a human being, ma’am.” And I think that part of the story didn't get the attention that it deserved. \n\nSo, anyway, it's also -- Excuse me. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=4701.0,5174.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTake your time. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5174.0,5178.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nAnyway. It's also forgotten too, that that case initially wound up in a mistrial, over some stupid technicality where one of the people on the jury, you know I don't even remember the whole details of it, but it was messed up. And I was there outside the courthouse that night. It was raining, we were all very angry and everything. I tell you; I think that the only reason that there wasn't a riot in Charleston that night, was it was cold and rainy, and you know we don't like cold and rainy weather down here. It was like 30 degrees that night and raining, you know. I think that's the only reason why people's emotions didn't explode that night. But Walter Scott's mother, Miss Julia Scott, I remember I went to a rally right after that with... It was Reverend Nelson Rivers at his church, Charity Baptist up in North Charleston, and you know, we were all, of course, very upset and angry. And Ms. Julia Brown— Scott, Walter Scott's mother, Ms. Julia Scott got up to the pulpit unannounced, and she said, you know what she said she was having a pity party, but the spirit of the Lord to came to her and told her, \"Get up!” …I think that speaks for itself. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5178.0,5285.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nFor sure. For sure. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5285.0,5288.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nSo anyway, because it was a mistrial, it was tried again, and Slager was found guilty. The officer that shot him, I believe- [crosstalk ] ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5288.0,5300.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"] ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5300.0,5300.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"]  MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWere you surprised by that verdict? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5300.0,5303.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nYou know what? I'm going to... Let me say this to that, okay? I understand that we are, as I was telling you earlier about Mr. James Campbell, the elderly scholar here in Charleston who died when he was 95 years old who used to work with Malcolm X's Organization of Afro-American Unity, he told me when I was telling him about how so many Black people doubted whether President Obama would be elected. He said, \"Damon, you must remember that we, many of us as Black Americans live in a culture of despair.\" That's what he told me. And I understand that, and I try not to be like that because I know that we are going to... in life we will have our wins and we will have our losses. \n\nSo, I try not to be surprised either way, because I often tell people when they ask me, how do I think this is going to turn out, how I think this and that’s going to turn out, I say each case is different because I got out of the predicting business after I thought that Trayvon Martin's killer would go to jail, that Hillary Clinton would've been elected president. I got out of the predicting business. So, I just accept each case as it happens. I try not to be surprised when we have our failures and I try not to be surprised when we have our successes, but I don't succumb to it to the point where I don't think we're going to have our successes. And that's the thinking thing. I hope that makes sense. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5303.0,5407.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOh, for sure. Let's talk a little bit more about the young people we certainly know about Muhiyidin and Feidin, but do you have any reflections about some of the other young people? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5407.0,5421.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nOh yeah. I'll tell you who I've gotten close with in the last couple of years, in particular, I'll talk about several of them. Brandon Fish. Brandon— I have really grown to appreciate the kind of young man he is because I've seen the growth in him, on a number of levels, and looking back on his whole thing with Muhiyidin, I saw how dedicated he was not only to what he believed in but to Muhiyidin as a person, and as a true friend. I really grew to respect him. And I talked to him, I just talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He told me that Muhiyidin told him that he also needs to do a lot of work within his own community, i.e. the Charleston Jewish Community and all of that. And I've worked on and off with the Jews of Charleston for over 20 years when I was involved with Operation Understanding, and I think he does an excellent job in bridging a lot of issues between the two groups. \n\nAnd then there was Muhiyidin's girlfriend, Shanalea. She and I got to be really close. You know, I remember when I first met her, she'd just come down from Minnesota and all that, and then I told her about Viola Liuzzo. And for those young people who were watching this, Viola Liuzzo was the young white lady who was killed in Selma back in 1965. You see, I used to go to Mississippi and Alabama quite frequently to take young people on field trips to those places, so I got to know about a lot of these people. And anyway, Viola Liuzzo's daughter, Sally, and I are pretty good friends, we stay in touch. And Sally was really moved by Shanalea's commitment to all of this. I keep trying to get them together, but because of the distance between where they are now that hasn't worked out. But in talking to Shanalea, she was just such a sincere and sweet young person about what she was doing that I think that's a good thing. \n\nAnd then, more recently with this later wave of young activists in Charleston, I just met Marcus McDonald, very recently. And I'm just starting to build a sort of a relationship with him, but Justin Hunt, who is a very outspoken young man, I've been in contact with him a lot lately. And my thing with the young activists is this, and I think that this is very important. Yes, we correct them when we think that they're going about things wrong, but we must also make sure to let them know when we think they are doing things right. And keep... And not just get up there and say, \"Oh, these young people, they don't know what the hell they're doing,\" et cetera. \n\nNo, no, no, no, no, no. See, the ones who are just out there, who are mischief-makers, and agent provocateurs and all of that, you deal with that one way, but when you see that a young person is sincerely out there trying to make things better, and making honest mistakes here and there, you keep that line of communication open with them, you see? And you let them know that you appreciate what they're doing. Give them their pats on their back when they deserve it. But when they're doing the wrong thing, you don't just go out on social media or go before the cameras, \"These young people don't know what the hell they're doing!\" No, no, no, no, no, no. You take them under your wing and say, \"Look here. Now see, listen. I’ve kind of been where you're going. And I'm going to tell you where what you're doing is going to end you up if you keep doing it that way.\" And that way, when they see that you have that concern for them and what they're doing, and you build that beautiful relationship, that is beneficial, because that keeps the struggle going into a positive and constructive direction while avoiding the mistakes in the past. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5421.0,5676.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo you think you're talking about yourself only, or do you feel that there are other, older voices of leadership that have come to that same understanding about how to work with young activists? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5676.0,5696.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nWell, I can tell you firsthand, I do know that Pastor Dixon does that. And I do know that Reverend Nelson Rivers does that. As for others, I can't say for sure, because one thing I don't do, anymore. In our youth when we are absolutist in our thinking, we tend to see things in pure black and white. So-and-so is an Uncle Tom. Well, so-and-so doesn't know what the hell they're talking about while so-and-so is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and without seeing the shades of gray in these individuals, you see? So, I don't ever say just because I don't know myself, I'll never say that so-and-so never did anything constructive and all that. So, I say all that to say that with a lot of them, I don't know if they do that or not, but they might, and I may not have knowledge of that, so if they do that sort of thing, great, I'm not going to condemn them for it, because if I don't know what they're doing, well, I'm not going to say. It's just that simple. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5696.0,5764.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nReflect, if you will, on some of the most meaningful moments for you in this period of time, where there is this agitation, there is this call to activism going on in the Charleston area. What comes to your mind as moments that you just think were meaningful to you, particularly? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5764.0,5795.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nTwo weeks ago, I had a conversation with Philonise Floyd, who is George's brother, and it's an interesting irony that it was Marcus McDonald, the young Black Lives Matter activist who introduced us. To back up a little bit, this was in the aftermath of the Jamal Sutherland case. For those who don't know, Jamal Sutherland is the young Black man who was handcuffed in jail, and while he was handcuffed, killed by correction officers. So, we've lately been pressing the issue for the state attorney general to look into this because, for those who don't know, the solicitor refuses to meet with the family. She doesn't think anything is productive coming out of that and so forth. So, Ben Crump was down here, the civil rights lawyer, along with Ahmaud Arbery's family, and... Who else? Oh yeah, Philonise Floyd, right? So, anyway, he introduced me to Philonise Floyd, and I started talking to him, and I just got overwhelmed when I thought of the enormity of what this young man had gone through. \n\nEverybody Black in Charleston knows somebody who was killed at Mother Emanuel. And I knew three of them very well, but they were not blood relatives of mine. But even when I talked about that, I get all choked up, and so I don't talk about that a whole lot now, but…but I got kind of overwhelmed in talking to him and I burst into tears thinking about what he had gone through. And I said, \"Man, how could you stand to have to relive that going from city to city talking about this? Because I don't even like to revisit Mother Emanuel a whole lot. And those people were just people that I knew.\" And so, he goes, \"Well, it's for the greater good. If I don't,\" he said, \"My going around and talking about this will maybe prevent things like this from happening in the future.\" And I'm like, oh man, this guy's like the modern-day Mamie Till, you know how Emmett Till's mother was going around the country, sharing her pain with the country. I said, \"Man, I can't...\" \n\nDifferent people go about this in different ways. My way is telling our stories. This is what he feels he has to do. That's his contribution that he makes. And so, that brought home the whole thing about everybody does not have to do the same thing in order to help make things better. We each do this as our own talents allow us. And that was my takeaway from that situation. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=5795.0,6001.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYou mentioned the tragedy of Mother Emanuel, something that will forever scar Charleston. But given that it is just one of the many atrocities that you've been witness to, over the past six or eight years- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6001.0,6022.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nPast 57.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6022.0,6028.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI'm wondering what the takeaways really are. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6028.0,6034.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nNumber of things. British reporter asked me, \"How do you deal with that?\" And I answered him like this: “One of the things that I understand about situations like this is that there's an old saying, that goes you take a duck, you throw them out in the water, and it does one of two things, sink or swim.” And I say that to say, you don't know how you survive a situation until you are forced into that situation. And so, that's when you learn what you are made of when you are forced, you are put in a place where you're in that situation because... Yeah, I had to deal with— you know I guess people have this impression that I'm able to articulate things, so I had to deal with these people from literally around the world calling me for my opinions of such things. And sometimes I handled it well and sometimes I didn't, but you know I've come to realize, if I don't handle it well, that's okay because I have the right to feel the way I do. \n\nAnd as a matter of fact, you played a small part in that, and let me tell you how. That meeting, when we were at the Congregational Church, okay? Originally Pastor Dixon, myself, Muhiyidin, and a number of other local people, we were brought there under the pretense that we would be the speakers that day, because we knew these people. But as you remember, Gwen Ifill, of PBS, she had— or either her or her handlers, I don't know who, they put us aside. And they put Jelani Cobb and these national people there, and we were like, \"What the hell is this?\" Right? And so, Muhiyidin got up, as you remember, he wasn't having— and you know Muhiyidin, right before all that happened, Muhiyidin looked at me and said, \"Big brother,\" that's what he called me back then. He said, \"What am I going to do, man?\" I said, \"What are you going to do about what?\" \"You see what they're doing to us?\" And I said, \"Yeah, I see.\" And he said, \"Well, what should I do?\" And I just told him two words. \"Be you.\" \n\nAnd he was him that day because he got up and called out a lot of that facade for what it was. Now, of course, they edited all that out in the final version, but then you got up and said something, and you talked about how they're trying to put this in this nice, neat narrative of how we're all lovey-dovey after that. And you called that out for the facade that it was. And that struck a chord with me in that, you know what? She's right. We have a right to feel the way we feel, you see? So, after all, that was over with, a lot of people were angry with Muhiyidin. And so, he's like, \"Well...\" Because a lot of people criticized him for disrupting the ceremony and all that. And I said, \"Well, I told you to be you and you were you.” [Laughing] But again, I appreciated your contribution to that because there's no handbook on how do you deal with that situation. But what you said was important, in that if people are not okay with this whole lovey-dovey thing after all that's okay, you handle it as best as you see fit. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6034.0,6288.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nKnowing that there will be people studying, writing Masters' theses, senior papers, dissertations, if you will, about this era and some of these researchers, or just curious citizens, are going to hear what you have to say. Tell us what you want to go on record about Charleston and the possibilities for change occurring in Charleston, anticipating that this is something that might be 10 or 20 years from now being heard. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6288.0,6337.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nWell, I think that … I think that on the whole with things, I mean, granted, I wasn't with the idea of people who came here wanting us to tear stuff up and all that. I definitely wasn't with that. That was just out of the question as far as I was concerned. We dealt with people like that and made it clear that no, it's one thing for us to express our anger, but we're not destroying that on our own city, that's just dumb. No, I don't go for that. But I think that it goes to show with something I said earlier that you never can say how you're going to react or how you're going to deal with the situation unless you have lived through it. \n\nAnd I want that to be understood that the people who wonder how we dealt with that, it like I said, kind of falls in just what I said earlier about George Floyd, and his brother and such, or Mamie Till-Mobley, or any of these people; none of them expected that they would be in a position where would have to speak on things like that, but it just so happened that they were able to rise to that occasion and handle it as it happened. And I think that as a city, I mean, generally speaking, the vast majority of us, I think managed to deal with that well on the circumstances. But again, I think it also, you have to be careful about other people taking your experiences out of context for their own purposes. You must always be on guard with that, and if you're ever misquoted or taken out of context, you have to publicly make it clear that was not your intention, and that your pain will not be used for the advancement of others. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6337.0,6451.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo you think Charleston is growing for the better, as a result of the kind of activism that was shown? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6451.0,6462.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nWell, I don't expect utopias. To be totally honest with you, I don't. I mean, I think that we are always going to have to deal with the fact that there's a dark side to human nature. Now there has been highs and lows because let's see about a year after that, I think was when Donald Trump came here and made those horrible statements about the Muslims at the Yorktown when he was going in for president. No, that wasn't even a year after that, as a matter of fact, I think that might have been the same year, 2015. And so, a few months earlier, everybody's on the bridge and all lovey-dovey, and then yet they're packing the Yorktown to hear Donald Trump say these vulgar things about the Muslim people. \n\nNow that happened... However, the very next day, and I don't know if this was publicized or not, Mayor-elect Tecklenburg and a bunch of us got together. It was a quick social media thing. Brandon Fish was in on this too, I should add. A bunch of us got together and went down to the Muslim Mosque on Upper King Street, in solidarity with them to let them know, \"Hey look, in spite of what was said last night, there are a bunch of us who aren't with that. And you're just as much have a right to be here as we do, and we stand in solidarity with you.\" \n\nSo, when it comes to that, it's a matter of whether the glass is half empty or half full, but in a sense, it goes into something that Huey P. Newton once said with the Black Panther movement about the articulate few must speak out for the inarticulate many. And I think going back to what you said at the Congregational Church that day falls into that category. I mean, I understand that each time an individual who has this ability to express their thoughts in a coherent way gets up before a camera, or a microphone, or an audience, we're speaking for maybe thousands of others who are unable to do that for themselves. \n\nSo, I say all that to say that I think that all things considered, we handled it better than a lot of places, but there's still a lot of room for improvement on a lot of things. For example, conditions of poverty and affordable housing in this area, that still needs much work. The education system here needs much work as well. And, but I understand why the educational system is as it is. \n\nAnd this is important to understand because it ties into all this, I told you earlier about... I'm writing this book about how these six Black men tried to stand up to Benjamin Tillman when he was segregating the state, right? Well, see, part of all of that was that the reason— one of the main reasons for segregated schools in the first place was to maintain and perpetuate a permanent class of cheap labor for the Southern United States. And so, the idea was to ostracize and under-educate them for that purpose. And Booker T. Washington, believe it or not, Booker T. Washington himself told Benjamin Tillman that you cannot keep another man in the ditch without getting dirty yourself. \n\nAnd that is the main reason that we lag behind the rest of the country in education. Because as a result of that system, as late as 1948, 62% of the Black population of South Carolina was functionally illiterate compared to 18% of the White population. And so, undoing this takes a lot because we've come to see with the rise of Donald Trump, that Tillman-ism can happen again. And that people will not always listen to what is right, what is reasonable, or what is logical; they go by what appeals to their emotions, and the bigotry and feeling that somebody else is beneath them appeal to their emotions, all the reason and the logic in the world, isn't going to help people like that. So, that's why it's important that, as activists, you have to make your voices heard so that a larger majority of the people out there know what's going on so they can come together with people, of goodwill, against the people who won't listen to logic and reason. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6462.0,6757.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThat sounds like a really good way to wrap up. We appreciate it. You're obviously wanting us to use history as some kind of a guidepost for the future, and we appreciate it.  DAMON FORDHAM\n\nYou're very welcome. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6757.0,6772.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nYou're very welcome. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6772.0,6772.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nYou're very welcome.  MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Right. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6772.0,6780.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377/transcript/84162/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DAMON FORDHAM\n\nOkay. I don't want to leave this without talking about something very important. And that's about the passing of Muhiyidin d'Baha. About six months before he passed around, I believe no... About eight months or so I believe it was around June of... Let's see, he passed away in 2018 if I recall correctly... About June 2017, we were at a party over on Mosquito Beach on James Island. I think you were there too, as a matter of fact. So, he and I were out there. We were having drinks and dancing with these women and all that and talking with these women and so forth, and there was a picture out there of myself and him, these women from Walterboro and such. \n\nSo, he tells me, \"Wow, I have to get used to this, just relaxing and enjoying myself like this.\" And I said, \"Man, dude, you're 32 years old! This is what you're supposed to be doing, man, come on!\" And then he started getting into this conversation where he said, “You know, this is getting too heavy for me right now, man. I need to get away. And just—“ I said, \"Well look, of course, you should, you know you can't burn yourself out, man.\" Well, that was the last time I saw him alive. He was killed in New Orleans, I believe it was February 2018. \n\nAnd so, it's kind of ironic that he would talk about getting away and all of that and such, prior to that... And what's interesting about that is that, back when Muhiyidin was alive, there were people who respected him as this young man who was trying to find his way toward doing something constructive, and he made his mark with snatching the Confederate flag off at the rally and so forth and being very outspoken in this community and appearing on national television from time to time talking about what's happening here in Charleston and such. But then, as always, when things like this happen, you have these people who weren't down with his program when he was alive, or dismissed him as an oddball, or resented the fact that his best friend was White, and that his girlfriend was White, and all of this stuff. Some of these were people I felt who were trying to exploit his legacy in some ways, by pretending that they were all this close to him when he was alive when they really weren't with his program, pretty much, or people who didn't understand that he was still young and in search of something. \n\nBut I do want to conclude on this note. Earlier, I spoke about talking with the— with that younger wave of activists who are in Charleston now, who were teenagers when all this was going on, they weren't involved with all this stuff then because of their age. What's interesting about all that now, is that when I talked with... When these young people find that I knew Muhiyidin very well and that he used to call me big brother and all this they're like, \"Wow, you knew Muhiyidin?\" And I said, \"Yeah, very well, just as I'm talking to you right now.\" And they have the same reaction to me having known Muhiyidin d'Baha, as I do when I meet people who knew Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and Esau Jenkins. And I think that's a beautiful legacy. \n\n ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/160065/file/291377#t=6780.0,7067.5"}]}]}]}