{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/pg1hh6dc1w/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Mark Maletz, January 31, 2023"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2023-01-31 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Whalen, Emily"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Maletz, Mark"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eMark Maletz shares in this interview how he met John Mroz during a Harvard Business School workshop for organizations considering major changes. EWI was at the cusp of a transformation, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. Maletz recounts how he was struck by John Mroz's leadership style and agreed to become involved with EWI's Board of Directors, eventually spearheading the Institute's efforts to develop young leaders in the Middle East. Beyond his work with the Central Eurasian Leadership Academy, Maletz talks about his investment in EWI's growth and future after John's death. \u003c/p\u003e (abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["College of Charleston Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["EastWest Institute","Fanton, Jonathan F.","Harvard Business School","Koç Üniversitesi","Mroz, John Edwin"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Decision making","Education","Entrepreneurship","Institution building","Organizational change"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Middle East","Turkey"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type IMT"]},"value":{"en":["video/mp4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright © College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2023-03-06"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eMark Maletz shares in this interview how he met John Mroz during a Harvard Business School workshop for organizations considering major changes. EWI was at the cusp of a transformation, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. Maletz recounts how he was struck by John Mroz's leadership style and agreed to become involved with EWI's Board of Directors, eventually spearheading the Institute's efforts to develop young leaders in the Middle East. Beyond his work with the Central Eurasian Leadership Academy, Maletz talks about his investment in EWI's growth and future after John's death.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright \u0026copy; College of Charleston\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/175/597/small/Maletz_Mark_Jan2023.mp4_1678023377.jpg?1678023378","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Maletz_Mark_Jan2023.mp4"]},"duration":2590.304,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/175/597/small/Maletz_Mark_Jan2023.mp4_1678023377.jpg?1678023378","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/175/597/original/Maletz_Mark_Jan2023.mp4?1678023375","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":2590.304,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Interview with Mark Maletz, January 31, 2023 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWonderful. It is Tuesday, January 31st, 2023. My name is Emily Whalen and I am interviewing Mark Maletz. Mark, why don't you introduce yourself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=3.0,12.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSure. I'm a Senior Fellow on faculty at Harvard Business School where I've been for 20 years. I was involved with EastWest Institute beginning in roughly 1990 all the way up until I retired from a board role there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=12.0,31.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWhen did you first hear about the EastWest Institute or meet John Mroz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=31.0,35.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSure. So actually I've been an organizational consultant as well as an academic for decades. And back in the late '89 timeframe, it became obvious that there were a lot of individual and small boutique consultants who dealt with organizational strategy and organizational behavior. And because they tended to come from very small or even one person organizations, there was very little opportunity for them to collaborate or develop their skills in a natural community. So, I came up with the idea of doing a workshop where we would bring together four organizations at inflection points or where there were major strategic challenges that had maybe even existed for some period of time. And then a group of practitioners who would meet with the intact leadership teams of those four organizations in a kind of retreat setting and work with them on what comes next.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=35.0,94.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so the three organizations that we started with, EWI then becoming the fourth, were the American Institute of Physics, which had lost 80% of their members in the previous couple of years, and so obviously a major inflection point. Clorox the ultimate one product company, wondering if there was anything more. Young \u0026 Rubicam at the time before they'd been acquired. As an advertising agency whose promise was we bring together the best creative talent anywhere in the world, but never delivered on it. And we needed a fourth organization to round it out and we wanted one that was less in the commercial space. And so I think that it was Patty Seybold who came up with EWI and she had met John Mroz, who she described as a super interesting, very chaotic and unpredictable character.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=94.0,156.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the Berlin Wall had just fallen, Soviet Union was on the verge of falling, and so EWI's inflection point was the question, do we declare victory? We've kind of helped to bring an to the Cold War and close up shop, celebrate close up shop, or is there an act two for us? And so EWI joined the mix of four organizations. We met, I think it was summer of 1990, although it's remotely possible it was summer of '91. We met up actually in Booth Bay Harbor. Patty Seybold had a place up there. And each of the four organizations, including EWI, brought the key members of their leadership teams. Now, what was interesting is there were lots of consultants who wanted to get involved with the other three organizations, and at least when we started pulling this together, nobody wanted to work with EWI. They'd heard of it, they thought it was kind of a peripheral player.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=156.0,218.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And because these were all active consultants, there was really some chance that any of the other three organizations might hire them, whereas no chance that EWI would. So I kind of defaulted into lead facilitator for the EWI part of that workshop. Met John Vazil [Hudak] was definitely there. I can't remember now if Sasha [Havlicek] was, she might have been. And I think there might have been one or two other senior EWI players. But I just found it was a fascinating organization.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=218.0,253.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At the time I was teaching at Babson College. And so if you think about the world of business goals, there's kind of a set of leadership models we operate under, what great leaders are supposed to do. And John Mroz broke every one of those patterns. So he just looked at anything from the way he networked, to the way he set a vision for an organization, to the way he spoke and just kind of analyzed it abstractly as an onlooker, you would say this is a terrible leader. Right? His talks, I don't know, have you seen video of him speaking?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=253.0,294.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYes, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=294.0,295.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo he tended to kind of ramble and meander and the pieces never quite fit together nicely, but interspersed were these brilliant visionary pieces and these really interesting anecdotes and the overall experience when somebody sat, whether it was a board meeting or a workshop or a broader setting, at the end, people walked away deeply impressed. They weren't ever quite sure exactly why, but they were always deeply impressed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=295.0,321.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I thought, this is a pretty interesting counterexample to everything we've ever taught. And John and I, over the years, became really close friends. And in some ways, his natural skillset worked brilliantly 90% of the time for EWI and terribly for 10% of the time. And part of that 10% was kind of the rigors of building a viable organization that did simple things like live within its budget. And so I ended up, for many, many years, actually decades as either chair or co-chair or vice chair of the executive committee of the board and we ended up filling in the areas where John either wasn't interested or wasn't naturally talented.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=321.0,371.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWould you say that the board, in this period of time, ended up kind of balancing some of John's deficits as an organizational leader?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=371.0,381.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo I would say the executive committee did. The executive committee was never more than a handful, six, seven, eight people the largest. The board was always quite large, too large to be a decision-making entity. And so I think the way I would think about the board was kind of in two ways. One was it was a natural extension of John's network and there were absolutely people on the board who contributed to John's and the institute's ability to do things separate from having a board role. And then the second part was it was absolutely a core part of the funding for the organization. And not all, but a large majority of board members gave meaningful contributions, donations to these. It met twice a year. It almost never made key decisions as an entity, but it added value in those other two ways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=381.0,437.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. One of the things that's come up in a lot of these interviews is how the sort of family atmosphere of the board, is this something that kind of subverted the leadership theories that you were familiar with as well or-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=437.0,450.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nNo, because in a lot of organizations there are family-oriented cultures. You can think of actually Fortune 100 companies that are that way. Often organizations that started with founder cultures. And even if the founders are no longer in place, those cultures still have that same family feel to them. So think, for example, of a company like Intel or Corning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=450.0,475.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it was less that, I think it was more that John, if you were to map strategy, one of the things we would say about strategy is that it has to be relatively stable over a reasonable period of time to accomplish anything. And organizations where strategies shift too quickly are unlikely to ever achieve meaningful impact against those strategies. And yet John's strategy, because he was so deeply networked and could sense things, patterns before others could changed all the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=475.0,506.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so I think if you ask, what is it that drew so many people that were in his broader network to want to work with him? It was his ability to anticipate things before they were visible and before you had any reason to commit resources to them, John would see a pattern, he'd commit resources and people just came to trust his ability to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=506.0,535.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nI want to go back a little bit. Sorry, go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=535.0,536.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=536.0,536.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nI wanted to go back a little bit to the workshop and ask you kind about the trajectory of that, that experience. You said EWI came in at this inflection point. Talk me through a little bit kind of the themes the workshop brought out and then where the leadership team ended up at the end of the workshop.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=536.0,553.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo I think part of what happened in the workshop, my guess, although I never talked to John about this explicitly, is as he arrived for that workshop, he had already decided that there was an act two for EWI. I don't think the rest of the leadership team had even started to think about it. And so if you think about the kinds of things that you do in that kind of workshop in terms of identifying accomplishments, identifying potential future scenarios, potential future strategies, all of that played out over the course of the time we were together in Booth Bay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=553.0,586.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And by the end of it, there was a clear strategy moving forward, I think a very clear acknowledgement that as the Soviet Union fell, there were huge deficits in the way the Soviet Union had operated that would get in the way of its trying to move towards what felt like the emergence of maybe democratic countries, former Soviet republics and market-based economies. And so broad brush, the vision said, well, if those kind of core things that we take for granted, the ability to do grassroots work and the ability to understand market economies and ability to operate with a kind of democratic orientation were lacking, what could a place like EWI do to begin to build some of those kinds of capabilities?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=586.0,643.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nSo the leadership team was sort of on board with John's determination by the end of the workshop?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=643.0,648.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nI would say they definitely were, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=648.0,649.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. Wonderful. And so what's the connective tissue between the workshop and you're joining the board?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=649.0,656.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo I think after the workshop, I don't remember the year I joined the board, but after the workshop, John and I built a relationship like so many others, and I started working with him informally, just counseling him as part of the pro-bono work that I've always done. And at some point he asked me if I would come and spend some time with the board and just help the board to do some of the more traditional kinds of governance work a board would do. And as I started to work with the board, it became clear that was the wrong model, that that particular board was never going to get there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=656.0,696.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so I ended up focusing much more on the executive committee, joined the board, joined the executive committee. And the executive committee, for the vast majority of the time I was with EWI, met monthly, and as I said, the board met twice a year. And so we ended up using the executive committee for more of that standard board governance function. It's not that the overall board of directors didn't approve the budget, but the executive committee really worked with John and his team to establish the budget and make sure that the various piece parts of the budget made sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=696.0,736.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nOkay. How would you say EWI changed over the trajectory of your time on the board?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=736.0,743.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo I think a few things. The EWI had always had elements that were what was coined as a think and do tank. And I think one of the original chairman actually coined that phrase for them. And I think that in the earliest timeframe, while it was think and do, there was a lot more think. And I think over the course, especially of the 90s and the 2000 to maybe 2010, there was a real shift towards a lot more on the ground doing. And if you've spoken with [inaudible], he probably talked about the Carpathian Euro Region project. And that was committing EWI resources on the ground in a part of the world where imagining the people who used to wake up worrying whether their neighbors were going to attack them suddenly became coalesced enough that they could form an entity that persists to this day as an independent spinoff of EWI. And you've probably seen lots of examples of other spinoffs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=743.0,811.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you talk to, or when you talk to Sasha Havlicek, she'll talk about a lot of the work that she did, again on the ground kind of around the Balkan conflict. And again, with a fairly large group of people in a dangerous zone doing work as part of EWI. And so that do part of the think and do tank, it became increasingly important. I think if I think step back and ask myself organizationally, what was the model? Not kind of explicitly constructed, but the actual model they operated under, I think there was this ongoing pattern of on the ground activities, a little bit later we'll come to CELA [Central Eurasian Leadership Academy] itself, which is another example, something that I think any other organization like EWI would've been hard pressed to launch a leadership academy in Turkey for participants drawn from across former Soviet republics, and yet John was willing to do that against a lot of naysayers. He said, \"Well, you're not a leadership academy. How can you do that?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=811.0,877.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so I think one part of the model was this ability and willingness to go into places that needed the kind of networking development, skill development, capability development that EWI could either bring or invent on the fly. So I think that's kind of one core part. I think the think part, which were a set of research projects ongoing, not to diminish their importance, because you had to do that to gain some level of credibility, but I think that looked on paper like 75% of everything EWI did, but it turned out to be 10% of the impact I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=877.0,923.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then John had this interesting ability to bring together groups of people in a variety of settings who shouldn't have had any reason to trust each other or to work together, and yet around John, they were willing and able to. And if you haven't already done this, I think an interesting exercise would be to look at every Chairman EWI ever had. And if you look at most organizations, and if you look at how the chairman, chairpeople evolve over time, there are strong patterns of likeness across long periods of time. And at EWI, to think that you would have someone like a George Russell or a Ross Perot, two so very different characters, and many others coming together in that role speaks to the way John was able to bring people together even if those people would never, on their own, have naturally collaborated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=923.0,987.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah, impressive. So you mentioned CELA, and it strikes me that you've kind of observed EWI through two major inflection points because of course another big shift for EWI was in the post 9/11 period. Tell me a little bit about what that was like as an observer for you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=987.0,1007.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo I think in terms of the organizational dynamics, I'm not sure that 9/11 fundamentally changed anything within the organization, but I think it raised awareness that there were threats that nobody anticipated and that created a higher sense of need for places like EWI whose primary mission, there were people who came to understand its primary mission, was this ability to look out far enough and see things that others weren't even looking at yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1007.0,1043.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And this ability to take non-natural players and put them in the same room. There was a meeting, I'm sure somebody's talked to you about, between military, Russian and American convened by EWI, huge levels of distrust, but they were willing for different reasons to come together all at some level because they saw that, I think if John was pulling it together, there was a reason to give it a shot. And I'm not sure that that particular meeting transformed anything long term, but it transformed lots of things near term. It created dialogue that then persisted after the meeting had taken place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1043.0,1087.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nGotcha. And were you involved in any particular substantive projects, these sort of projects of action that the EastWest Institute was taking on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1087.0,1099.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nThe two. So the longstanding one was the Central Eurasia Leadership Academy. And if you think about the concept there, as I said before, Soviet Union ends, there are all these former Soviet republics, the Soviet economy was designed so that nobody thought entrepreneurially and was even designed so that it would be hard to if you wanted to be, because the elements of any kind of production were distributed geographically in ways so that no single Soviet republic that came into existence after the fall of the Soviet Union had enough to fully act on its own.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1099.0,1140.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so it was a belief that John had, that I shared, that said, while a lot of the bureaucratic mechanisms of the Soviet Union had created a more senior group of technocrats who were unlikely to ever become full-fledged entrepreneurs, so you could end up with all of these oligarchs who, based on their understanding of the system, could accumulate resources. That's not the same as entrepreneurship, but they weren't really entrepreneurs. And the belief was that if you go down to a slightly younger cohort, so people who were in their late 30s through their 40s, maybe even early 50s, kind of in that range, that there were people who were natural entrepreneurs even though they'd never experienced it and were natural leaders, even if they hadn't had the opportunity to do that, and were natural change agents. And that you just had to look hard to find them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1140.0,1203.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that the people who ran these countries, and we started with eight of the former Soviet republics, probably didn't even know who they were for the most part. Or if they knew who they were, probably were suspicious of them or probably thought they were troublemakers in some form or another. And some of the people who actually ended up coming over time to CELA, for example, spent time in jail, not for crimes, real crimes, but because they were viewed as being somehow disruptive elements.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1203.0,1228.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so we ended up with, sorry, a former EWI employee who came back, his name was Adam Albion, he had lived for many years in the region, he spoke several of the languages in the region. He was married to an Uzbek woman, had lived for a significant period of time in Uzbekistan, and we gave him a crazy mission, which was twofold. First, go and find natural change leaders who, if we could bring them the right kind of training and mentoring, might go on to do important things in the region. And the second was even crazier. We said, \"You know what? We want half of them to be women.\" And the initial reaction anytime we told anyone that was, we talked earlier about gender balance, \"That's ridiculous. I can find a thousand men, I can find three women,\" but Adam didn't think that way. If you interview him, you'll see. He said, \"All right, if that's a mission, I'll go off, I'll find a way to do it.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1228.0,1288.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so he went in and we ended up with roughly eight people from each of the eight countries to start with, so 64 people show up in Turkey. I'm pretty sure that was summer of 2002. And the recognition was that we could teach them in a kind of bootcamp setting over a period of time in Turkey, and we could, as part of that bootcamp, establish networks that would endure beyond the program. But that if you just kind of did that and then walked away and let the networks do what they were going to do, that would be incomplete. And we recognized that there was huge potential value in mentors and that mentors could do two important things. One is be a source of network for the participants and network, because a key element to this was about entrepreneurship, social or commercial that could also help them to provide funding, the mentors. And the second part was ongoing coaching for the individuals because you can only teach so much over the course of a boot camp in the summer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1288.0,1360.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that's where the connection with SIBF was made. Joel Cowan was on the EWI board, he was also on the SIBF, he was a fellow of SIBF, I think he might actually have been on the board there as well. He made the connection, SIBF basically committed to bringing us, for every one of the working groups that we created over the course of the summer, at least one mentor. And then as an added benefit, they ended up providing funding for it. And these folks from SIBF who came to Turkey paid their way 100%. So EWI didn't have to do that. We had, at the time of the first workshop, a board member at EWI, Mustapha Koç, who was the founder of Koç University, the principal of Koç Enterprises. And so he provided us, at least for the first few years, either huge discounts or free access to the university, which is outside of City Center of Istanbul. So it let us have access to Istanbul, but let us be far enough afield that it wasn't a distraction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1360.0,1436.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so if you think about Harvard Business School, and if you think about the school's mission, it's to teach the next generation of leaders for the world's most important businesses, transformative and most important businesses. And CELA, in a kind of analogous way, was trying to do that for the former Soviet Union. And so as I say, we brought together roughly 64 people. We put them into mixed groups so that they could engage with folks from across the entire region. We ran it for six or seven summers fully as an EWI initiative, and then as EWI so often did, we had critical mass, we had critical engagement from SIBF. And so EWI stepped away and SIBF stayed engaged, I think is still engaged at some level to this day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1436.0,1493.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But in large part over the years, it became self-sustaining. The pandemic has complicated things, but right up until the pandemic, they were running CELA workshops using their own resources. A lot of the people we trained ended up in academic roles or were already kind of aspiring academics and so they ended up becoming faculty going forward. So we had folks who were, from the probably 60% level from the business side, 30% level from the NGO world, and 10% from the government world. And-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1493.0,1535.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWhen you talk about the bootcamp kind of setting, you're bringing these 64 folks together, they're sitting in classes that are sort of modeled on the HBS model or-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1535.0,1545.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nBoth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1545.0,1545.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nWhat kind of things were they doing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1545.0,1546.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo if you think about the way we teach at HBS, there's a heavy emphasis on case studies and the core construct of case studies, it presents some set of dilemmas or challenges with enough context so that you can weigh in, but enough distance and safety so that you can have conversations that would be harder to do in the real world. And so we did several case studies across the course of the bootcamp where they were engaging just like in an HBS MBA class.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1546.0,1578.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We also do a lot of work that's more experiential, simulations, team building. So we did that as well. And then for executive education programs that we run at HBS, we do a lot through living groups. So the standard model is living groups of eight and they spend time talking about cases before they get in the classroom to make sure that everyone's had a chance to weigh in and express their ideas. They debrief learnings at the end of each day. And so we use that model as well with each living group within CELA being facilitated by the one or two SIBF facilitators.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1578.0,1621.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it was exactly... So if you look at exec ed programs at Harvard at the Business School that are open enrollment, so you have people from different companies, this felt very much like that. And this was the other part of the model that 90% of the NGO COs, I could imagine, would say that's ridiculous. John was perfectly on board with it where we said, \"Let's operate with really high expectations. Let's assume that what I would teach at HBS, I can teach to CELA,\" even though English isn't their first language for any of them, even though none of them have ever seen a case study before, even though none of them were trained in a highly interactive classroom environment, let's just operate that way and kind of see how it played out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1621.0,1670.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nHow did it play out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1670.0,1673.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nI think it played out brilliantly. I think they rose to the occasion. I mean you could tell some differences because English wasn't their native language, but if I think about executive programs that I've chaired at Harvard that are fully international, which wasn't a factor, I would say they did comparably to executives of major companies who come to Harvard from around the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1673.0,1697.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nDid you learn anything through this process?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1697.0,1699.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nYeah. Well first of all, I didn't know much of anything about differences across these former Soviet republics. So I learned a lot about the history and the culture, but also about the operating models that they use. So I remember clearly a conversation, a colleague of mine came in to teach a model about influence without authority. And one of the core tenets of that model is that there's always some form of reciprocity. Nothing's ever done purely altruistically. And the Armenians, at their core to a person said, \"No, no, altruism is a core value. If we do things expecting some form of reciprocity, we're violating one of our most important core values.\" And there was literally a fight between this faculty member and several of the Armenians, one of whom was a deputy finance minister for the country at the time, and so it got pretty intense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1699.0,1767.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And at the end, I was observing my colleague who was teaching clearly learn something about cultural differences. What, from an American lens, might feel almost unbelievable to this colleague of mine, what was actual reality? And for me, it served me in a lot of the work that I do, not so much at HBS because the values of folks coming in, these are all business people, but I do a lot of teaching across the US with Native American tribal leaders. And we do a lot of case work at HBS where one of the presented problems is you've got somebody who's not a good fit, you've got to figure out what to do with them, and ultimately, if you can't, you've got to exit the person from the organization.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1767.0,1813.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the first time I ever taught a case like that to these tribal chiefs, one of them politely said, \"Look, you have to understand, we have a different construct, different way of thinking about family than you do. And so I have brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and grandparents, none of whom are biologically direct linkages, but they're family. In the same way you think about your grandfather, somebody who's not my biological grandfather is my grandfather. And I'm not firing my aunt, and I'm not firing my brother and I'm not firing my clan brother. It's just like my brother the way you would envision brother.\" So I think it taught me to think differently about the mental models and meet the folks that you're teaching kind of where they are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1813.0,1862.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So in some ways that was CELA and continued. We tried another one that we did initially as a one-off that we called the Middle Eastern Leadership Academy. And you probably know that John's roots with the State Department were in the Middle East. And so from time to time, EWI did things in the Middle East. I'm not sure of the problems that were solvable anyway, but we had this idea that we could maybe bring together, much as we did with CELA, a group of folks from the Middle East, including Israelis and Palestinians and even Syrians and Lebanese participants, and put them in a common space. The analog to Istanbul was London, and it was on the grounds of Windsor Castle, I forget the name of it, but there's a cross-cultural center that makes itself available if you join work kind of across cultural or religious boundaries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1862.0,1925.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so again, we brought this set of people together and it was much more difficult than with CELA because I think that people coming from the former Soviet republics at least had some natural sense that there was a connection and in the Middle East it was more complicated. And I remember that the Queen Mother had recently passed, and she's buried, I think somewhere maybe in the church on the grounds. And we had an organized arranged meeting there. And so we've got this group kind of in the church and the Queen enters the church with, I think two security guards, and they see this group of Middle Easterners in the church. And they had to have, at some level, been vaguely aware that they hadn't broken into the grounds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1925.0,1981.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And within minutes, these two folks now had an entourage of, I don't know, 20 security people, I don't know what, but it was a big number. And from the point of view of the participants, they recognized that while they had all of their local differences, that the rest of the world in that moment, the Queen and her guard, saw them simply as Middle Easterners. So we canceled the rest of the day's planned teaching sessions and just spent time on what we'd learned in that moment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=1981.0,2017.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's brilliant. Yeah. And you mentioned, so you said there had been two projects, substantive projects that you were involved with. One was CELA. Was the other one the Middle East Leadership Project?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2017.0,2028.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nMiddle East, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2028.0,2028.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nOkay. Cool. And-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2028.0,2030.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nAnd then there were spin offs, when you talk to Adam, there was a Central and Eastern Europe, Central and Eastern Asia project that I never taught in, but there was a natural spinoff as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2030.0,2044.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2044.0,2046.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nBut again, I think the way I think about things like CELA and MELA were kind of intellectual opportunities to do things that were out of pattern with anything you would've expected from EWI and a willingness then to take that on. And for many years we talked at the board about what EWI had learned from that ability to do that kind of maybe think of it as intellectual entrepreneurship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2046.0,2080.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. So eventually you left the board of EWI. Tell me a little bit about that transition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2080.0,2085.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo for me, it was health related. And so I couldn't travel for a period of time the way I had been, and I had to give some set of things up. And I was, I'm still on faculty, so I wasn't going to give that up. So there are things I was doing at the time, and I'm still doing the tribal leaders, and the calculus I personally used was, while I hope I'm invaluable to EWI, I wasn't necessary at that point. There were others who had come along who could do maybe not the CELA teaching, but the board work. And whereas in the Middle East, sorry, with the Native American work, there was no one else. So I made that trade off. John and I remained friends still to the day he passed, but my time with EWI came to an end. And you'll probably talk to Bill Ide, or have you spoken with Bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2085.0,2151.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nHe's next on the list.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2151.0,2154.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nOkay, good. So Bill had been on the exec committee with me at that point, maybe for five or six years. And so knowing that Bill was willing to invest the time in taking over the chair role for the exec committee made it a lot easier for me because I knew I could step away and it'd be somebody there who would continue the practice and process.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2154.0,2175.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. Looking back over your time, what are you proudest of of your time with EWI's board?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2175.0,2183.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nI'd probably say two things. One is the CELA program itself, and it's also, I've done this kind of work for decades. I've been married now, this year will be 43 years, so-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2183.0,2195.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nCongratulations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2195.0,2196.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nThank you. My wife is a singer and a writer, and so we live in very different worlds. She was part of CELA with me and we did do a kind of oral history project within CELA for the summers that I was faculty chair, my wife, Ilana, would write a one-page story with a little team that she'd pulled together, including some of the SIBF spouses, so that participants would have access to that so that as they first met, they would know something about each other that wasn't simply their bio. And so we talked earlier about this kind of family connection. So even in my case, there was that family piece. I've got three kids all in their 30s now, but all three of them came to at least one, some of them to two CELA programs. So that was a very personal connection.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2196.0,2253.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the second is, as I said, John, at the 90% level, was everything EWI ever needed. But at the 10% level, I think there were things that I could do and the executive committee could do to make sure that we didn't permanently run out of money or that we had a way of telling the story, even if it changed more often than my strategy background might have said was appropriate so that we could tell a story that people really understood. And I think especially around that ability to create cohesive stories around John's disparate parts, I think that's something I was proud of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2253.0,2289.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. You don't have to convince the historian of the importance of stories here. One of the things we're hoping with this archive, not only that it's a repository for EWI's history, but that it'll also be a resource for future students of international relations. So wonder if you have any advice for current undergraduates thinking about making a career in international relations or perhaps in the NGO sphere?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2289.0,2314.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nYeah. I think if there's one more important than any other lesson from the whole EWI experience is that there are all of these tools that you learn in school, track one, one and a half, track two diplomacy, kind of how that's all supposed to work. It's all very formulaic, it's all reasonably rigid at some level, and one of the many, many rules that John broke was that he wouldn't be bound by that. He would do things that on paper looked like they would create disaster, but it was the interpersonal touch, it was the willingness to take risk, it was the willingness to expose his own network to its disparate parts and bring it all together. And we, totally separate from the world of EWI, at HBS we've done a lot of work, as you can imagine, on trust and what are the cornerstones of trust.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2314.0,2368.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there's lots of research, but if you boil it down to three core elements, authenticity is an absolutely critical piece of what it takes to build trust. And I'm assuming you never got to meet John, but you've seen video, he's as authentic as you get. You couldn't fake it, right? He was who he was in every moment. There's a piece around empathy, and I think John also was deeply and genuinely empathetic. So when he was with someone, they really felt like he cared because he did. And for all of us, there were these three pillars, there's one that tends to be our true strength, and in John's case, I'd be hard pressed to say which one, it was either authenticity or empathy, but whichever one was in primary, the secondary was so close.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2368.0,2426.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then there's a third that tends to be our weakness, if we're going to falter somewhere, it's that one, and the third one we refer to as logic, but it's the ability to have a clear enough rationale and way of operating so that you are at some level predictable. Because if every time you meet with a person, even if they're authentic and empathetic, if they're all over the board, it's hard to know if you really trust them because you don't know where they're going next-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2426.0,2451.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nSo sort of legibility?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2451.0,2453.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nYeah. And John, that was his wobble if one existed. So I think if I'm a student, I would think about, to what extent against those three, where are my strengths? How do I develop the weaknesses? And then how can I, because empathy's important, because I care, and because a lot of the models I'm studying might feel a little bit too rigid, how do I do things, take those risks that allow me to do things that don't look like they're otherwise possible? And John was as much a risk taker in the kind of entrepreneurial sense as I've ever seen, even in the physical sense. So we ran, have you heard about the retreats in Gig Harbor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2453.0,2504.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. Here and there. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2504.0,2506.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nSo George Russell was the head of Russell 2020 and had his own business, lived up in Gig Harbor, had a place on the sound, and we ran a retreat for EWI staff there several summers. But in one of the summers we did this team-building exercise that involved building boats and racing boats. And if you've ever been to Gig Harbor, it's extraordinarily cold water. And we had a fairly large contingent of staff from Russia, from the EWI center in Russia, and those guys had no problem whatsoever going into this really cold water.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2506.0,2544.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"John's, at that point, he's got to be in his 60s already, not in great shape, and so a smart thing would've been to let a younger Russian guy go out and race the boat for him. But John said, \"No, it would change the way everyone looked at me among my own staff.\" And so John goes out into the water, he doesn't have a heart attack, he could easily have, and he comes back out and kind of collapses onto the beach. But he would do things that on paper looked crazy, but that kind of made sense and worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2544.0,2579.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nYeah. Well, that's a great place for us to wrap up unless you have anything else you'd like to add on. Well, thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate you taking the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2579.0,2587.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MARK MALETZ\n\nMy pleasure. Thanks. Nice meeting you, Emily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2587.0,2587.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597/transcript/42548/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"EMILY WHALEN\n\nAbsolutely. Nice meeting you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1894/collection_resources/87107/file/175597#t=2587.0,2590.304"}]}]}]}