{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/rb6vx0857n/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Oral history interview with Jeremy Rutledge"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["6/10/22"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":[" Jeremy Rutledge is a senior pastor at the Circular Congregational Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He became involved active with Black Lives Matter Charleston group after the fatal shooting of Walter Scott in 2015."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright © Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture."]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Note"]},"value":{"en":["For more information contact the Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture, 125 Bull Street, Charleston, SC 29424."]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Statement"]},"value":{"en":["All rights reserved."]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee"]},"value":{"en":["Rutledge, Jeremy, 1971-"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewer"]},"value":{"en":["Brown, Millicent E., 1948-"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Topical"]},"value":{"en":["Black lives matter movement","Church","African Americans","Political activists","Activism","Political participation","Community organization","Social movements"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Personal or Corporate"]},"value":{"en":["Scott,Walter, 1965-2015","d’Baha,Muhiyidin, 1985-2018","Moye,Muhiyidin, 1985-2018","Charleston Area Justice Ministry (Charleston, S.C.)","Black Lives Matter Charleston (Charleston, S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject - Geographic County"]},"value":{"en":["Charleston County (S.C.)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Contributing Institution"]},"value":{"en":["Avery Research Center at the College of Charleston"]}},{"label":{"en":["Media Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}},{"label":{"en":["Resource Locator"]},"value":{"en":["AMN 1168.001.020"]}},{"label":{"en":["Digitization Specifications"]},"value":{"en":["Mp4 derivative audio and video created using Davinci Resolve. Archival masters are all mp4 files."]}},{"label":{"en":["Date Digital"]},"value":{"en":["2022"]}}],"summary":{"en":[" Jeremy Rutledge is a senior pastor at the Circular Congregational Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He became involved active with Black Lives Matter Charleston group after the fatal shooting of Walter Scott in 2015."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright © Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowcountry Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/212/original/LOHI_aviarybanner2.jpg?1741032082","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/298/976/small/Screenshot_2025-12-17_at_3.54.19%E2%80%AFPM.png?1766004871","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20251217-4125201-mnvskn.mp4"]},"duration":4719.774,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/298/976/small/Screenshot_2025-12-17_at_3.54.19%E2%80%AFPM.png?1766004871","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cofc.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/298/976/original/open-uri20251217-4125201-mnvskn.mp4?1766000815","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4719.774,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["DTA Interview - Jeremy Rutledge - Edited Transcript.docx [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nGreetings, Jeremy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=22.0,23.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nHello.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=23.0,24.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nHow you doing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=24.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI'm all right. How are you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=25.0,26.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nExcellent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=26.0,27.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI'll tell you about tonight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=27.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nAll right. Have a seat. This Dr. Brown. Okay, great. Excellent. I'll leave y'all to it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=30.0,39.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHey, Jeremy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=39.0,40.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nHi, Millicent. So, I'm so glad to see you. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo glad to see you. Whose is this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=40.0,42.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo glad to see you. Whose is this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=42.0,42.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo glad to see you. Whose is this? CREW\n\nI have no idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=42.0,47.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Forgive me. I absolutely was thinking I had a few more minutes than I actually did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=47.0,54.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nNo worries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=54.0,55.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd we're not going to hold you. We're going to be very respectful of your time. Let me just grab a pen. I can't think without a pen in my hand. Jeremy, did you have a chance to see that article that Adam Parker wrote about this project? Uh-oh! He's frozen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=55.0,83.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI don't recall reading it, Millicent, although I usually try to read what he writes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=83.0,88.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=88.0,89.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nWas it recent?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=89.0,90.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=90.0,91.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=91.0,92.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nWithin the last month maybe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=92.0,93.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt was just about a week ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=93.0,95.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nWas it? Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=95.0,96.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. Okay. So, you didn't? Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=96.0,99.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI don't think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=99.0,100.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhen we're doing these interviews, I take a few minutes just to make certain that our interviewees understand the breadth of this project.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=100.0,111.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=111.0,112.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd I'll shoot that article to you. But just the fact that we know that so often, many years down the line, people are trying to collect memories and things get a little bit shaky, people can't remember accurately and that kind of thing. And so, we just think that the timeliness of this particular project is really important, because there are those of you who were here, but you've also had a little bit of time to reflect on the years. Now, our years for the project are loosely defined as 2014 to roughly following, well, actually 2020.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=112.0,167.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nYeah. 2020-ish.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=167.0,169.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWith George Floyd.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=169.0,171.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=171.0,172.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nBut please, as you and I are talking today, there are no real constraints. If you should think of something that's not in that timeframe, that's perfectly okay. What we have been saying is, this is not an interview like so many with news people and media folks, where you get soundbites eventually grabbed. And you're very aware of that, even with your work with CAJM. We are saying, our efforts are to create some documentation where you, the respondent, really gets a chance to make sure, for the record, that things get put in the historical record that you want to make sure are there. As Avery possibly does some other things with this, of course there will be some excerpt thing, but our main goal is an archival one so that folks way in the future will have the opportunity to get a little bit more personal insight and not just the pieces that so often folks get identified for.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=172.0,261.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nSo with that, the procedure that we've been following is asking you ... I'm going to ask you to give and spell both your first and last name. I'm then going to just ask you to say, what I loosely say, where you're from. That can be a one word answer, or if you want to describe for us places and spaces that were really impactful on your childhood development or whatever, you call where you're from, whatever it is you want to say, okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=261.0,307.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=307.0,309.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd some people, that has been multiple places. And then, the third question is simply going to ask you what is the title or titles that you would want to be identified in the archives with your name, okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=309.0,328.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nBefore you get started, I apologize. I just got hit by a wave of nauseousness and dizziness. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOh, gosh!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=328.0,333.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOh, gosh!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=333.0,333.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOh, gosh! CREW\n\nAnd I don't know where it's coming from, so I'm just going to step out and let Erica know real quick. And I don't want to take any chances. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nLike I said, I wasn't feeling this beforehand, and I just got hit by a wave of it. I don't know if it's diabetes-related or something, but I'm going to just go let Erica know. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Go take care of yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=333.0,339.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nLike I said, I wasn't feeling this beforehand, and I just got hit by a wave of it. I don't know if it's diabetes-related or something, but I'm going to just go let Erica know. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Go take care of yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=339.0,339.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nLike I said, I wasn't feeling this beforehand, and I just got hit by a wave of it. I don't know if it's diabetes-related or something, but I'm going to just go let Erica know. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Go take care of yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=339.0,339.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nLike I said, I wasn't feeling this beforehand, and I just got hit by a wave of it. I don't know if it's diabetes-related or something, but I'm going to just go let Erica know. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Go take care of yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=339.0,339.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nLike I said, I wasn't feeling this beforehand, and I just got hit by a wave of it. I don't know if it's diabetes-related or something, but I'm going to just go let Erica know. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Go take care of yourself. CREW\n\nBefore you get started, I wanted to let you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=339.0,352.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. But, I'm going ahead, right? CREW\n\nYeah. It's just me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=352.0,356.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nYeah. It's just me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=356.0,356.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nYeah. It's just me. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. One of our student assistants said he was not feeling well, so he had to walk out. So, it's just the two of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=356.0,365.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay. And Millicent, is it possible - can you adjust the camera, so I can see a little better?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=365.0,369.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah, sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=369.0,370.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nIt'll be more fun. Thanks. There you are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=370.0,373.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYou can see me now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=373.0,374.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI can see you perfectly. Thanks. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt's important that when we really get into this, that the door is closed and I want to... JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=374.0,379.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt's important that when we really get into this, that the door is closed and I want to... JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=379.0,379.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt's important that when we really get into this, that the door is closed and I want to... JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=379.0,379.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt's important that when we really get into this, that the door is closed and I want to... JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure. CREW\n\nDo you need me here, Dr. Brown?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=379.0,396.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI'm good. The fact that we're doing this on that one... Erica, will you be staying in with me?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=396.0,406.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nNo, ma'am.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=406.0,408.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. CREW\n\nWe'll be in the room.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=408.0,409.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nWe'll be in the room.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=409.0,409.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nWe'll be in the room. ERICA VEAL\n\nI'm in the reading room, right next door.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=409.0,410.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. Well, I don't think there'll be any problems as long as you have us plugged up, so I won't lose battery power or anything like that. So, we're good to go. And how do I end it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=410.0,422.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ERICA VEAL\n\nWhen you're done, you can come get me and I'll end it. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=422.0,425.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=425.0,425.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nOkay. ERICA VEAL\n\nI'm right next door.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=425.0,427.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHand me my phone out of that pocket there. Usually I have somebody with me, Jeremy, that helps keep me on track, but I've got it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=427.0,435.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay. And Millicent, I don't know how to record things on Zoom, so if someone needs to come in and capture it at the end, that's fine. Whatever works.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=435.0,445.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nIt should already be recording.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=445.0,447.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nIt's already recording.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=447.0,448.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay. So, it'll save?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=448.0,449.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. We're good. All of this is going to just get bleeped out. CREW\n\nI'm so sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=449.0,453.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nI'm so sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=453.0,453.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nI'm so sorry. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI hope you feel better, dear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=453.0,456.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CREW\n\nLiterally I'm looking at my hand and it's shaking, so it could just be diabetes, but I just don't usually get nauseous and feel like [inaudible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=456.0,461.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"]. So, I'm so sorry for [inaudible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=461.0,463.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=463.0,465.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nNo. That's all right, dear. That's all right. Thank you so much. Take care now. I'm talking to you from Avery. One thing that's nice about this grant, Jeremy, that is exciting for me, is that when they got the Donnelly Grant, Avery was able to purchase the equipment, all of some very sophisticated camera equipment and everything. And so, many of our interviews have been done in person where the interviewer came down here and whatever, a few like this being done via Zoom, which is fine. But, I'm spreading the word; I'm letting folks know that Avery is set up in ways that we can continue to do this kind of document way past this contract period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=465.0,524.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nGood. That's so good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=524.0,527.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYeah. Okay. We'll get started. And I'm going to ask you to just give us your full name and spell both.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=527.0,536.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOkay, sure. My full name is Jeremy. I'll give you the whole thing. It's Jeremy Paul Rutledge. And so, that is J-E-R-E-M-Y. Middle name Paul, P-A-U-L. And last name is R-U-T-L-E-D-G-E.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=536.0,554.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nGood. And what do you call home, Jeremy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=554.0,559.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI do have a two-part answer. So, I was born in Hawai’i; that's where I came into the world and that's how I saw it, and that was a very formative place for me, but have spent more of my life in Houston than any other place still, and was partially raised also there, but then also was a hospital chaplain there and First Parish Minister and things like that. Met my wife there and we started our family. And I also have deep family roots on both sides in Texas. And so, Houston is a formative place and a home place as well. And have been here in Charleston now for 10 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=559.0,605.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\n10, is it? JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=605.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=608.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd I just realized, because I've known you for some time and I went right into being very casual with calling you Jeremy as opposed to Reverend Rutledge, but I know you well enough to know that you usually go by your first name. Tell us, if you would, for archival purposes, what the title you would associate yourself with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=608.0,639.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nIn the church, my title is Senior Pastor, at the Circular Congregational Church. If I'm on letterhead or something like that, a very proper title would be the Reverend Doctor. But again, as you know, I just go by Jeremy. Those titles are really good for op-eds or for things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=639.0,662.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI know. When some credibility is needed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=662.0,664.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=664.0,667.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHave you been at Circular the whole 10 years that you've been here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=667.0,671.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI have. Circular is what brought me to the Lowcountry. I had not really visited here before. I came as the candidate to be the Senior Pastor. So, that was my introduction to not only the Lowcountry, but to South Carolina. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nReally? JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=671.0,688.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nReally? JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=688.0,688.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nReally? JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=688.0,688.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nReally? JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nMm-hmm. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWe're going to ask you to talk about some comparisons there, but I want to go back to Hawai’i.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=688.0,696.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=696.0,698.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nHow long were you in Hawai’i before moving to Texas?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=698.0,702.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSo, I was only there from birth till seven. So, I just barely started school, but I realized a little later in life, Millicent, that the experience of going to kindergarten in Hawai’i was formative for me because, and this is critical in the way I just saw the world, there was no racial or ethnic majority. And you know, Hawai’i is extremely multicultural. And I remember my kindergarten class somewhat vividly, and my parents supplemented that memory, but there were only a couple of white kids in the class. And there were Japanese kids, Hawai’ian kids, Filipino, Samoan. And then, religiously - we practiced many different religions. And all of these things were normal to me, and I thought that was the world. I mean, it was certainly my world. And then, that's important to know, because that was what I was born into.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=702.0,763.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd then, when we moved to Texas, I was put in a \"good school,\" and everybody was white. And I had never seen that before. And my parents said I panicked. I had culture shock. And I came home from school in tears and said, \"Where is everybody?\" They said that's how I asked, \"Where is everybody?\" because I'd never been in a group that was all the same or where everyone was like me. And the reason I share that sometimes, that formative memory, is that I still feel like I'm this seven-year-old boy wondering why we're not all in the same room and trying to create that again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=763.0,810.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThat is such a special kind of a foundation for a child to have and you're very fortunate for that. And people who know you appreciate that may very well account for the comfort level that you seem to show. When people hear you talk, they believe that you mean what you say. And that story you just shared makes that clear, as to where that foundation comes from. So now, let's do Texas. Did you have parents that were advocates or social justice people kind of thing? What early influences did you have on that kind of involvement?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=810.0,872.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nWell, I'll tell you. So, my very first memories of this actually also started in Hawai’i. So, my dad was a pastor at the time – and this was, I was born in '71 - and Vietnamese refugees were coming our way. And our church got very involved in helping to receive them and help them begin to resettle. And the church also, since it's was Hawai’i, had a number of military families in it. And so, we had people going both ways. We had soldiers who were going to Vietnam. We had families who were fleeing Vietnam, and this was all in the mix in church. And my parents and our church were very involved in trying to help. And I remember my father vividly expressing anti-war sentiments, I mean, all my life, and that he was no supporter of the war. He saw the incredible harm it was doing to everybody, you know? And that was part of our faith, from as far back as I could remember, was being involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=872.0,942.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd when I was seven, I wouldn't have been able to differentiate between church stuff and justice stuff, or being inside the church walls or being outside of them. And so, it really started there. And then, as I grew up, you get to know your parents a little better [laughter] than when you're a small child. And they were very progressive in their thinking. And they were very deeply concerned with social justice. And in particular, the way that was expressed in our family; we grew up in the Baptist tradition and my parents were advocates for women's equality in the church. That was not - for women's ordination, for treating women equally - that was not a fight they were winning in the Baptist church.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=942.0,993.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI'd love to meet your mother.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=993.0,994.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSo, we found churches that would ordain women who were in the minority of Baptist churches at that time, white Baptist churches, and our family talked about it. I remember our parents, you know, I remember sitting in a circle and talking about why we were making decisions and what mattered to us and why we believed women should be treated equally. And we were all on the same page, but I felt like, as a child even, I was included. I was included in those family discussions and decisions, so I had a strong sense of who we were. Then later, a little later, we chose to go to churches that were welcoming and affirming of lesbian and gay friends. And then, we expanded that as we all grew to include bisexual, queer, trans, all kinds of people. But our family talked about those values. And I knew that, included in those values was the fact that we needed to choose, we needed to take a side. So, you either take the side of ordaining women, or you stay silent and you don't do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=994.0,1065.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd that was just part of it. And so, I mean, the other piece I would add to that is that my parents - and this was an old Baptist thing; it doesn't only belong to the Baptists, it's in many traditions - but the idea of conscience was stressed over and over. You must listen to your conscience. If something troubles your conscience, you've got to pay attention. If something's not fair or it's not right, you know, these ideas - you've got to listen to that. And my parents were very sincere in following their conscience and encouraging us to listen to ours. And in that tradition, that was done in community and in conversation. So, you weren't supposed to go off and have no attachments, and whatever thought crossed your mind was fine. That's not exactly what they meant. That could be dangerous. But they meant, we've got to wrestle with these questions together. And everybody brings a little bit of wisdom. Everybody brings some conscious of that conversation. Maybe figure out where to go from there. And I thought, Milicent, that was normal. I thought all families were like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1065.0,1139.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWell, that's exactly where my next question is leading. Given we're talking about Texas, in the '70s and walked into the '80s, how unique was that perspective that your family was taking from their peers’, and whatever? I just wonder the extent to which they were comfortable with that, and supported, with those kinds of ideas.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1139.0,1175.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSo, my father became a professor, a college professor, which is really what he had always wanted to do. So, excuse me. And so, we would find these little Baptist churches that were to the left of all the other ones. And so, we had this idea that there were always small groups of people who saw it the way we did or... Kindred spirits. And then, we were also often around college professors and graduate students and the community that... My parents were really open. The dinner table was open, so there might be graduate students, there might be pastors, there may be people from the community dropping in, or it might just be the family or people from church, whatever. But there was - to me, that almost heralds back to Hawai’i again, where there's always room for one more person at the table, you know? That kind of hospitality is present in almost every culture. But we knew we were swimming against the tide in many ways, but there were always some people, you know; we were never quite alone. And that certainly prepared me for what I do now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1175.0,1264.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nFor sure. You know, I guess I'm trying to imagine not just what your parents and that close grouping that you were exposed to, I guess I’m thinking about “...and then there's the rest of the world. There's the rest of Houston,” or whatever. And your introduction to pushback, can you talk about that a little bit, or how your parents would've handled that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1264.0,1302.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure. Honestly, that community that I mentioned was so strong,I don't think I understood how sheltered, in some ways, it was, until I went to college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1302.0,1324.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhich is where? Where did you attend school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1324.0,1327.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI followed a family tradition and went to Baylor University, which generations of my family members had gone to. Everybody I knew went there. And so, I thought everybody I knew would be like my parents. And I got there and found that I related very strongly to the faculty, who were similar to my parents. And a great many of my peers were very conservative, very far to the right and religious in a way that really didn't compute for me. And so, that was a struggle for me. I mean, it was such a great struggle that I don't talk about it very often, because I felt like I outgrew it while I was there. And I found a very small group of students and professors to hang out with to weather that place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1327.0,1377.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBut, that was my introduction. It was funny to be around that many Baptists in a university setting, and then realize how reactionary so many – well, to my mind, how reactionary they could be and how very opposite of me and my upbringing. Or, you know, I remember I studied religion and literature with a whole lot of philosophy as well. And I remember, the kinds of things people were arguing about had been settled in my family when I was little. So, we're still having those same arguments, which I didn't find interesting. I thought, \"I don't want to argue with other 20-year-old young men about the role of women. Give me a break,\" you know? So, that got old. So, I found good professors. And again, there was a handful of really wonderful students who... I'm not suggesting that I had it all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1377.0,1449.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBut, there were some really open-minded kids I found and could hang out with. But, that family tradition may have ended with me, Millicent, and that's the way it goes sometimes. So, I went to college and had some pretty good culture shock and realized, as wonderful as my parents were, they hadn't thrown me into that kind of environment. And honestly, I'm not even sure they knew how far to the right things had turned, because when they talked about and thought about being Baptist, you know, we would talk about Jimmy Carter or Bill Moyers, or even voices like Molly Ivans. Then you mix in some Texas voices as well. And the things that were Texas and Baptist to them were not the things that-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1449.0,1450.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnn Richards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1450.0,1515.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nExactly. Ann Richards. And she was also a Baylor graduate. So, I thought everybody would be like, you know, Anne Richards and Bill Moyers, right? And then, I showed up and went, “Oh, gosh! What's going on?” And it felt like a lot of kids who expected the next level of youth group or something. And I hope that doesn't sound terrible, but it was a strange experience for me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1515.0,1550.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd it's very helpful just for someone who is as identified as you are with these issues. It's helpful for anybody to hear, that those were struggles that you encountered and that you had to be made aware that your bubble had to burst at some time. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1550.0,1575.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1575.0,1575.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nLet's bring you on over to Charleston, if you would. You come in 2012, which means that you get to be witness, to a number of wonderful, but then also some pretty horrendous, things happening. And I just wonder how you would describe for us your reactions and some decisions that you made personally and with the church. When the young Curnell men is killed, or Walter Scott is murdered - can you tell us a little bit about what some reactions were to those events?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1575.0,1628.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSure. And I have to always be honest - I didn't follow Denzel Curnell's death closely. I don't know why it didn't register with me as much, when it happened. Later, I found out more about it. But, at the time it happened, it somehow didn't register, or I didn't hear much. I'm not sure why, and maybe there's-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1628.0,1654.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDid it get as much publicity?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1654.0,1656.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nNot in my memory.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1656.0,1659.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThat's partially the reason, perhaps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1659.0,1662.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd so, I wasn't as familiar. I mean, the thing that - I ended up coming back and learning more about it after Walter Scott, and there may be something to that, in terms of what was made available. But, for whatever reason, it didn't cross my path in the same way. I was actually out of town, in Asheville, when Walter Scott was killed. And I remember I was in a hotel room and I saw the news on TV. It was a national story, and gosh! I can't remember, Millicent, if it was the news or it was the video. It may have been, because when that came out, it was the shock. I mean, it was such a horror for everyone to view you. And I can't remember why I was in Asheville -","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1662.0,1722.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\n- it was for something professional, but I just wanted to be home. And I remember crying and I felt sick to my stomach. And I don't know why I just wanted to be back in the Lowcountry, just be home. And I remember texting Reverend Rivers, I cannot remember what - Nelson Rivers, at Charity Missionary Baptist, and texting with my wife, Sarah. And I was home not long after that, but seeing that video, there have been a few times for me and maybe for other people, when I felt despair for the country. And not that the country's ever been a particularly good place for everybody, or a fair or just place, but there have been these moments you see things that affect you so deeply. I mean, for me, I would identify our illegal invasion of Iraq as a time that was a profound... I don't even lack the words - I mean, I don't even have the words - for this. When we invaded Iraq, I felt great despair for the country. When we watched what happened in New Orleans after Katrina, and people being abandoned there, Black people, I felt despair.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1722.0,1827.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThen when Walter Scott was killed, I felt despair to see him murdered like that. And I don't think I'm the only one that felt that despair to see that. And I do remember T-shirts being sold up on Remount Road in North Charleston, near the lot where he died. And the T-shirt said, \"Do you believe us now?\" Because the Black community had always been telling us this and it had always been happening, but people did not believe them - white people, I mean, people in power - until there was a video that you can't dispute, you can't deny, you can't really even look away from it because it became ubiquitous. So, I also remember that, as I felt despair, the despair was deeper because I knew that shirt was true, you know? That it had always been happening. And I don't want to get too preachy about it. That's part of what I do, but it was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1827.0,1909.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nNo, but we hear your profound concern. What did you then decide to do, you and Sarah personally, or in the capacity as pastor at Circular? What was the response then that you felt driven to?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1909.0,1932.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nWell, two things come to mind. The first is that, as soon as I was back, just a couple of days later from Asheville, I know the church service was a service of profound grief and lament. And there's a Hebrew lament tradition where it's raw, you grieve, you bear witness, you don't try to make it feel any better. It shouldn't feel better. And there's a tradition of, you know - I'm thinking of Job - just putting ash on your head, just ripping your clothes, just profound grief. And the service, the Sunday service, was that. It was grief. And it was trying to tell the truth about how deeply racist the country remains and the kinds of things that those of us who are white don't really understand. There are all these dynamics to that, and that white people aren't the easiest group to talk to about those things, because there's a lot of shame and guilt, and there's a lot of discomfort with pain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=1932.0,2004.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd denial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2004.0,2005.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nExactly. There's a lot to deal with, with groups of white people. And I'm a white person and I love my people, you know, and my people in my church, which is predominantly white. But I'd been here for three years, and I had their trust and we know each other. And they knew that my grief and lament and searching was genuine. And that was the first response, was to just have a... How do I want to put it, Millicent? Just a straight-up lament with nothing to soften it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2005.0,2045.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nNow, that's interesting because we now know, because we have those of us who were present, or there is a record popularized throughout the country, if not the world, that many folks were hesitant to respond that way in the aftermath of Emanuel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2045.0,2078.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2078.0,2080.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd so, I wonder, might you compare those two phenomena? You're wanting to say to Circular Congregational after Walter Scott, \"Let's feel this lament and experience the lament.\" And then, what happened a short time later after Emanuel?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2080.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. I will, and then I'll come back to the second part of the Walter Scott-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2100.0,2106.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo it whichever way you want. I'm sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2106.0,2108.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nLet's figure... Well, since they're related, let me do the second part of the Walter Scott response, and then it will lead us naturally into this question as well. The second part of that response was an invitation, actually, from Reverend Rivers – again, at Charity Missionary Baptist Church - and Reverend Al Sharpton was coming down to lead a vigil, a prayer vigil, on the site where Walter Scott had died. And Reverend Rivers invited me to be there and to bring a prayer that I'd written. And so, I went to that, our family went together, and there was something very powerful and important about being in the spot on the site where he died. And I don't remember my prayer exactly, but it was a prayer of bearing witness and it had a repeated refrain that said, \"He was here, our brother.\" And it was trying to bear witness to the fact that he was really here, that we're standing in the place where he was, that this is where he died.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2108.0,2186.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd there were a number of other clergy; I think all of them were Black, and I remember Reverend Pinkney was one of them. And I remember his voice, that deep beautiful voice that he had. I believe Muhiyidin was there, from Black Lives Matter, just from the community. The Scott family were there. And that... I mean, there was a moment - I took my son who was very young at the time - and we took flowers. I think we took flowers. This is a little hazy. There were a lot of flowers. I think we took some of our own, but we went to the place and we put flowers there and we touched the ground, you know? And we were talking about saying his name and saying that we were there to remember him and to cry for him and to bear witness. And these are religious expressions for us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2186.0,2255.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd that was part of the lament. And to me, those are deeply human expressions that do the important work of resisting denial. We didn't just think about Walter Scott. We didn't want to go to the place where he fell down right there and died, you know, and it was a real thing, and so much of the prayer and the presence was trying to understand that. And the lament and the grief expressed in church was also trying to understand that, not to avoid it or to try to make it easy or to... I mean, the pain of it is really important and true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2255.0,2307.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo you remember the pain being associated with the cause, or are those isolated things? I mean, the humanizing of Walter Scott. And did it lead, at least publicly, to “And let's look at why this happened”?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2307.0,2332.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAbsolutely. Although, part of the pain was, we all knew why it had happened. Part of the pain was that there's nothing new about it, and that it was a continuation of what has always been wrong, what has been most wrong in this country from our founding. And I'll just be plain. I mean, to me, that is white supremacy and the racism that's all the racist systems and structures and attitudes that derive from it. Excuse me. So, when we go, then, into the month of June, when Mother Emanuel, when the murders happened there - and we'll talk about that some, I know - there were some profound expressions of genuine grief, just an outpouring of grief.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2332.0,2394.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd then, I felt that, very quickly, people wanted to make it into a story that wasn't as painful as it really was, because the pain of it was almost too much; if you really try to hold that pain for a minute, it's extremely hard to bear. But I think we have a moral obligation to hold that pain, but I also think that's not a popular or an easy thing to do. And I felt, even by the time people were holding hands on the bridge, I felt a lot of personal bitterness because I didn't feel like it was time to hold hands, and I didn't feel like it was time to feel better or act like we had done something. And I remember we'd been to a number of vigils and the services and all kinds of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2394.0,2460.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd our family skipped the time on the bridge, because we said, \"No. We're not there. Maybe one day. I don't know. Don't ask. It's too soon. Don't ask me that.” And we were about to begin the next year, a serious push in our justice ministry, our Charleston Area Justice Ministry, for an audit of our police departments for racial bias. That effort was very strongly resisted by all our public officials - I can't say - by all of them who were white, including our mayors and our police chiefs, for three solid years. This is after we saw the video. So, we didn't ask until the next year, then there were another three solid years of resistance. So, we're talking three, four years just to receive an audit, just to ask, \"What's going wrong here?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2460.0,2529.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd that's constant sustained public pressure for all those years. So, the resistance to even the smallest of attempts to address this was incredibly strong. And it's important that people in the future know that. And there were a lot of public expressions of - I don't know, there were a lot of public expressions that would seem to be anti-racist or unified or something like that, but there were not commitments to anti-racist policies or to changing the system or to really looking at what was wrong. I felt like there was almost no appetite for that from our public officials. But we did seem to want to make Charleston look like a special place or a place where there was this great amount of unity, or we were different than everywhere else. And I felt like those are very dangerous things to perpetuate, because to my mind, a young racist white man came and murdered a lot of Black people, and that's what happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2529.0,2615.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nTo me, that's the story, is this homegrown hatred. And that's an American thing, but this part was our South Carolina part of it. I don't know. To me, that remains the story. That will never be a story that is heartwarming to me about how we all came together. It will be, it will always be, a story that is heartbreaking, about the violence and the hatred that still exists here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2615.0,2659.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nI want to resist asking you to be the voice of all white Charlestonians - forgive me for that - but, I am still curious though, since you were right on the ground observing while you and CAJM, and the many supporters were talking about working towards some systemic changes: what was the rest of Charleston doing with all of this? I mean, I heard you describe the, kind of, not wanting to engage. Were you having conversations with other ministers that were trying to persuade you otherwise? I'm just curious of how was that being articulated outside of the supportive environment of CAJM members?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2659.0,2711.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThat's a good question. I feel like there were lots of things that sprung up. There were reading groups and supper circles and things that were ... They were well intentioned. They really were. And there's nothing wrong with having good conversations and good relationships; I think that’s important. But I felt like among the other churches I know, not the justice ministry-type churches who are a little more inclined to be prophetic or really try to tell truth, even if it hurt to tell them. But I felt like, in a lot of the other churches, which would be the majority of churches, there really was an attempt to try to ease people's feelings or comfort them. I understand the role of comfort. I really do. But I also think we shouldn't be comfortable all the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2711.0,2777.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nNot every time is a time for comfort. And so, having said that, most of the churches and congregations that I'm associated with, or collegial with, tend to be those justice ministry churches. So, I have some relationships with other clergy, but they're not as strong. And we know our differences, and so I can push them to do more, and they think I'm way off in left-field. And then, to be honest, there are quite a number of churches who won't have much to do with us, because we're known to be progressive and we've got, you know, the Pride flag hanging on the fence and they don't want to... My sense is they don't want to be too closely associated with us, excuse me, which is certainly for them to choose.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2777.0,2839.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBut I can also say that, within our church, I know that there were a lot of others who felt that it was not safe to tell the truth in their workplaces. I'm thinking particularly of schoolteachers and public employees and others who felt political pressures to hold to this kind of idea of unity, of Charleston being special and genteel, and all of this, without saying very plainly that Black lives matter, without saying names and without... You know, Black Lives Matter itself, and the idea of saying someone's name, the hashtag idea? That in itself is a type of lament, to preserve someone's name, to say it, to tell their story, to bear witness to what happened. Those are vital expressions, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2839.0,2905.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTell us a little bit, because again, we don't know how far into the future your words will be heard, you know. Tell us what that argument about “No, all lives matter” - what was the thinking there? Why such a negative response to “Black Lives Matter” as a slogan?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2905.0,2928.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nOh, gosh! Well, for you, Millicent, and for the future, if I knew the answer, [laughter] I'd tell you. I mean, the way I hear it, I hear the “All Lives Matter” response as a white fragility or white insecurity, an inability to just say, \"We're saying Black lives matter because Black lives have not mattered in the same way.\" We're lifting up a group of people who've been targeted in saying, \"No. Walter Scott mattered just as much as anybody else.\" White people are not being targeted. White people are not being profiled. White people were not treated differently and were not... I mean, we know the history of this country. So, to say “Black lives matter” is to be specific and to take a side. And, to my mind, saying “all lives matter” is to water that down and to not take a side. It's almost getting back to that idea, that “Let's just create a fuzzy unity without any specificity.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=2928.0,3005.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nSo, I heard that as a reaction. Or when people would sometimes say “blue lives matter” - referring to the police - it's a way of really changing the subject or way of deflecting. And to my mind, to say, “Black lives matter” is to be specific and to say, \"No. We have a problem, and we need to be honest about what it is. And the problem is that Black people are being profiled and killed. That's the problem. It's not that all people are.\" But, I think that was a political response.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3005.0,3054.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYou are in - at the time of this conversation, which is 2022 - you're still here, committed with your work with CAJM. Tell us your degree of optimism or pessimism about Charleston. About Charleston, I mean; we know the nation is struggling, for sure, but in terms of all of what you've been involved in for these many years, how do you feel about the capacity for change?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3054.0,3100.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI think I want to... I don't know, Millicent, if I feel optimistic or pessimistic. I want to think, in terms of realism, I'm trying to imagine what is really possible or where we really are. And certainly, anyone who goes into the work I've gone into starts out as an optimist, you know. And then you start swimming against a really strong tide, and you have days of pessimism, days of despair, days wondering \"Is anything ever going to happen?\" And in our justice ministry work, during those three solid years of asking, most of the time, we didn't think it was going to work. Finally, after three years, I've never quite seen anything like this, when the city council finally voted - and there's a long story there - but when they finally voted to have an audit for racial bias in policing in the city of Charleston, our justice ministry members were euphoric, because we didn't think it'd ever happen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3100.0,3174.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nWe had stopped feeling optimistic. We were just doing it because it was right. We just thought, “We'll be doing this forever.” Now, there're some follow up questions about how effective the audit is and how committed people really are to carrying it through and its recommendations. But for me, in some ways that's a model of the work. I don't know. I don't really ever know if and when things will give; I just know that I'm inspired by all those who've gone before us, who did their part. And then, one year, it gave, you know? One year voting rights gave, or one year something else. And I feel like now it's our turn to do our part in our time. But, with regard to Charleston specifically, I can't say that I'm very optimistic, because we're very good at somewhat superficial gestures. And doing the more structural work of change and creating equity, creating justice, and even telling deeper truths about who we are - not only who we have been, but who we still are in so many ways?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3174.0,3258.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI don't see many that are very willing to do that - and particularly, I mean people in power, people with access to the levers of power, public officials. And so, often we'll take one or two superficial steps, but when it comes to the hard part of really creating change, I think there's very little interest. So, I wish I saw it differently, [laughter] or I wish I had experienced it differently, but that's been my experience. And part of my political education has been, oftentimes, the people who I have found the most disappointing are people who are, for instance, Democratic politicians, who claim the same values as me, or claim the same commitments to racial justice, for instance, but then, behind the scenes, fight tooth and nail to keep anything from really moving forward. And to me, that's harder than just maybe the other side of the aisle who won't even agree in the first place. And so, you're fighting just from the start and not behind the scenes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3258.0,3340.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYou got into your profession, and you've maintained your commitments philosophically for a very long time, out of your faith tradition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3340.0,3356.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3356.0,3359.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWhat do you think the message that you want to convey to activists of the present and the future? I mean, not all of them are coming through a faith tradition. I'm not even sure what my question is. I'm trying to say help us understand where people are going to get their grounding from, where they're going to stay motivated from, what's going to keep them in the fight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3359.0,3395.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThat is a great question. And I want to say - this is fun to say for the record. So, I'm definitely coming from a faith tradition, but I'm also deeply committed to pluralism, which is part of the genius of this country. And so, I honor all faith traditions and also philosophical traditions. For those who are not particularly religious, it's a lovely country because there's room for all of us, and because we can find common ground and work together. And Millicent, a lot of what grounds me is not particular to my faith tradition. It's a beautiful faith tradition in many ways, it's problematic in some other ways. I was born into it and I'm happy to be a part of it - this is the liberal or progressive Christian tradition. But, one of my dear friends was a professor of ethics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3395.0,3455.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nShe was my professor, Sharon Welch, who was a Unitarian Universalist. And she had taught at Harvard for a long time. I met her in Chicago. She talks a lot about ethics and how we ground ourselves for the struggle, and she was really... She really helped shape the way I saw things and the way I work. And she talks so much about how we're involved in these ethical struggles and these struggles for justice, and we don't know what the outcomes will be, and we're not in control of the outcomes. And it may go our way. It may not go our way. We're not going to know. And so, how do we keep doing ethics when we're not really in control? But it requires us to risk, it requires us to struggle, to make partnerships with others, to keep going. How do we do that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3455.0,3504.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI find that question extremely relevant. And Sharon's idea, and as a Unitarian Universalist, this is very broad, so hopefully most people could find themselves within it. Her idea is to ground ourselves for that struggle in beauty, in joy, and the things that bring us to life, which for me - and probably for many others - happen to be my family, happen to be where we live, the ocean and the forest, the natural world. That goes back to when I was a kid; my original grounding place was the ocean, just being in it and near it. But she talks about just really grounding ourselves in what brings us to life. And she talks a lot about joy and a lot about care. And she draws this from Indigenous traditions and also from Black womanist writers, in particular, because she says, \"Who's had to struggle in this country who hasn't been in control of things historically?\" And she draws from those traditions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3504.0,3577.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nIt says, “It's been a long time since Indigenous people were in control of things, but have a really wonderful and resilient ethic.” And what about the Black community and Black women in particular? Not always in control for sure, but a resilient and beautiful ethic that can be passed down, and that is in many ways steadfast. How do you find that? And I think... I'll use just a personal example. So, this past year has been another very difficult year. If you're listening in the future, this was another year of COVID. We had some very dangerous surges. A lot of people were sick. A lot of people died. I'm immunocompromised, and so it's especially dangerous for me. I'm higher-risk. It was just a hard year of being. And we often would go to the forest to walk. And these days, it's warmer; we go, often, to the ocean and just walk for an hour and watch the sun go down. And that beauty and the connection to something greater really is sustaining.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3577.0,3655.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd I think - I mean, I could be wrong - but I really believe that's universal, that all of us, regardless of our religious or philosophical tradition, tying into the good earth, to something larger than ourselves, to some beauty, to some nourishment, that these things sustain us and that we need to do them if we're going to keep going, or else it is very easy to burn out or become so tired. Because the image I keep coming back to is, we're just swimming against the current and the current is so strong. And sometimes we have to climb out and just rest on the bank for a minute. We can't just keep trying to swim forever. It's a long haul.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3655.0,3706.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nThat's particularly helpful and profound for us today, those in the future, you know. We've got to find out what it is that keeps us going. And just the last few minutes before we let you go, I almost want to end on what is a beautiful note that you just shared with us. But, I'm going to go back to something a little bit more contentious, because I just can't not do this with you, because I value so much, the view that you had of all this, of what was going on in this community. As you saw other groups of activists - let's say not just CAJM kinds of groups, but there was SONG, there were Black Lives Matter for sure, Black Liberation Front - there were multiple groups that were coming forward, addressing the injustice that was just...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3706.0,3774.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nDo you have any - either recollections, or even now, do you have any thoughts - about what could have gone better to help those groups to coalesce? Or, did you see them working well together? I'm just curious about what you were seeing as all of these actions were playing out. There were the folks that were climbing, you know, about the taking down the flag, and there was the monuments. I mean, there were just so many different initiatives going on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3774.0,3815.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. That's such an interesting question. And I don't really think I know all the ins and outs as well, but I could speak to what I picked up at the time. And some of these were conversations with Muhiyidin. And Muhiyidin went by a couple of different... Muhiyidin d’Baha, sometimes, online, and Moye, and I remember him-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3815.0,3848.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nBelieve me, he has been brought up so many times, I think anybody knows all these iterations of who he was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3848.0,3857.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nI remember him sharing with me that he felt like they were doing a lot of work to keep things peaceful among different varieties, I think, of Black activists, with different levels of extremely understandable Black anger and rage at what kept happening. And I just remember him sharing with me that he felt like he was doing so much work to try to keep the peace among different groups with different ideas about how to respond in that moment, and different types of protests all the way to “Let's take up arms.” I mean, I remember him saying, “Man, nobody knows how hard we're working to keep the lid on it, to keep it as simmering without boiling over.” Those weren't his words, but he probably put it more eloquently. And I always thought about him, in particular – often, in the white community, he was perceived to be some angry Black man, this caricature or stereotype - I found him to be full of love and a sensitive and beautiful man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3857.0,3935.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd if you are sensitive, this is a rough country. And if you love all people, if you love Black people, this is a really hard town to live in. And when I think of him, just for the record, I'd see him with children and in drum circles, laughing and praying, and his Baha’i spirituality really coming through. He was angry because we should be angry. He lamented because we should lament. And I remember even once, my son, he was still pretty little at the time, heard Mohideen swear or someone swear at a Black Lives Matter protest. And my son and I talked about maybe there are times to curse. Maybe there are times we should swear or spit on the ground or stomp our... You know, these are kid images in many ways, but there are times we should be so angry, we should let people know we're angry. And our family commitment and our faith commitment is to nonviolence. That doesn't mean we're not angry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=3935.0,4005.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nTwo very different things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4005.0,4009.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. That means, that commitment is, in many ways, I can't say more heartfelt. I'd just say it's extremely heartfelt when you have a lot of anger, but you're committed to not channeling it in violent ways. You've got to figure out, “How else am I going to express my anger, use my anger, deal with my anger, and then relatedly, my extreme grief and sadness, and both,” you know? I want to honor both, but I feel like in the South or those of us who were raised to be polite in certain ways, it's easy for us to be sad - that's comfortable. and something we can control or live with. Being angry is not something I was raised to understand very well or know what to do with. And that's true of a lot of people, certainly true of a lot of white people that I know, where anger was not expressed very well. So then, when we feel it, we've got to figure out how to understand it. That could be really powerful and even really good to feel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4009.0,4085.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWell, I hope you are continuing to share that sentiment with your audiences, you know? Because it's a way towards health that we need to explore much more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4085.0,4103.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. Thanks. And I think – gosh, yeah, I do think there were just so many responses at that time, and most all of them made sense to me. I do remember, then, going to the State House and those rallies to bring the flag off of the State House grounds. That was so long overdue. But, I remember the energy of those protests. And then, I did want to mention this just for the record, Millicent, and you were there, but in the fall of that year of 2015, James Cone came to Charleston. James Cone was really the founder of Black Liberation Theology, a professor. He died a couple of years ago, but he was professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York. And he came at my invitation, but we invited him to come and speak to Circular Church, our church, and to Charity Missionary Baptist Church, Reverend Rivers’s church, to speak to both of us together. And so, we had one lecture at our church and one lecture at their church, and we all came to both.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4103.0,4182.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd that was one of the many buried responses. We'd actually invited him before Mother Emanuel happened, but in the wake of Walter Scott. And he sent the kindest correspondence back to me and he said, \"I'm too old. I don't really travel anymore, but I think this is important. And I think I like what you and Charity are doing together, and so I'm going to come.\" And that actually began a friendship, which was very life-giving to me, and very inspiring to me. And he - James Cone - was lifelong AME. So, while he was here, we also took him to Mother Emanuel, and members of the church showed him around. And so, I just wanted that to be in the record because it was a really beautiful thing that happened and a powerful thing for many of us, because in those two lectures, Cone talked about his own life experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4182.0,4252.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nIt wasn't just, you know, an abstract commitment to Black liberation or something like that, or in theory. He talked about what it was like to grow up in this country and how he saw things and what was at stake, and it was - and I'm getting back to what I said previously - it was two solid days of beautiful anger, just honest lament.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4252.0,4279.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAnd he always did it better than most.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4279.0,4282.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. And also still, within that anger, within that lament and that truth-telling, still the commitment of a man who was too old to be traveling, getting on a plane saying, \"Okay, I'll do it.\" You know? And blessing the rest of us to keep doing it. And it is a great help to all of us to know that we're not alone. And so, we're all a part of that story. This is my spirituality, but we're all a part of that story. We honor those who went before us in the work, and we're doing our part, and we're trying to bring up the next generation to do it and pass it to them as well, with respect and love, but just... We're all a part of that. The only other thing I meant to mention - and I know you know this - on the evening of the murders at Mother Emanuel, I was on a bus trip with Charity Missionary Baptist Church and Kahal Kadosh Beth Elohim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4282.0,4357.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd so, Reverend Rivers was on the bus, Rabbi Stephanie Alexander was on the bus. It was a civil rights bus tour organized by Charity Missionary Baptist. And we were going through – it was a pilgrimage, through the Deep South. And that day, we'd been at the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis. We'd been at the Lorraine Hotel that day. And we were on the bus out of Memphis that night, and we started getting all the messages about what happened. And people were crying on the bus, saying prayers. We were trying to figure out what to do. Reverend Rivers, Rabbi Stephanie, and myself, got on a plane the next morning, at dawn or something, and flew right back. And we felt like we'd just been seeing all these pictures in black and white of the struggle in all of these people. And certainly, there were King and all the big figures that we know about, but I was just looking at the hundreds and hundreds of people we’ll never know, just ordinary people doing their part in the struggle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4357.0,4426.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nAnd then, the next day we were back in Charleston, and the streets were packed, and the churches were packed, and I just felt like we went from black and white to color - but it was the same story. And I remember internalizing that, “Oh, they were just like us. We're just like them. And this is the story.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4426.0,4453.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\n50 years later, but...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4453.0,4455.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nRight. And that's part of also what grounds me and many of us is that none of us are really in control of the story, but we're all part of something much greater and we're working, we’re doing our part. And to me, that's encouraging because it's not all up to me. But also, it does make me responsible; this is my part to do, and when I do it, I honor the ones who did it before. And I hope, I sure hope, that the ones coming after can see, as well, and that we can pass it to them too, but that they'll know that we tried. So, those ideas are good for any generation. And the struggle we're in, whoever's watching this, whenever they're watching it, I'm sure the struggle will still be going on, and they'll be a part of it with us as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4455.0,4531.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nWe thank you so much. Just wonderful insights and really important for the record. We really needed to hear everything you said. Thanks so much, Jeremy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4531.0,4541.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks, Millicent. It's so good to be with you. And I'm grateful for Avery and for the stories being recorded and remembered.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4541.0,4552.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MILLICENT BROWN\n\nYes. Thank you again. Take care. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks. You, too. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAlright. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4552.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks. You, too. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAlright. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4557.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks. You, too. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAlright. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4557.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks. You, too. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAlright. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4557.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976/transcript/87853/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nThanks. You, too. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nAlright. JEREMY RUTLEDGE\n\nBye. MILLICENT BROWN\n\nErica? Hello? Anybody here? Hello? He's gone. It's just a matter of how to get out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://lcdl.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3440/collection_resources/164259/file/298976#t=4557.0,4571.5"}]}]}]}